Patrick Leonard stating the hard truth "you cannot longer make it in online poker"
Patrick leonard, one of the best online mtt players sayed a couple of day ago this reality, literally stated on the podc
Lots of people in here speculating. Now I ask, is anyone here actually living off of poker for their only source of income?
Clearing $100k is nice, but the amount of hours sitting at your computer and then also needing to study while not playing seems like it would lead to burnout after a couple of years. Also, the inevitable bad run that turns your $100k into $40k, or even a losing year. Then what do you do?
If you take out the cheating, online poker would do ok. The VIPs wouldn't be afraid to sit, and the casual players wouldn't get their $200 deposits incinerated within 15 minutes of sitting down. Poker needs cashflow or there's no game. The player pools have done everything in their power to make it less enjoyable for people playing for fun, and surprise, it's no longer fun. They instead go to the online casino games or sports betting mobile apps, which also have casino games. The ship has sailed, though. Poker would need to be cool again, and being a nit while running RTA on a second laptop with 12 other people in the room sharing cards is not cool. The degen pro days are over. That was cool
As an Irishman later this year the bill that our suited clowns passed means we will not be able to play a game with a stake more than €10 and prizepool exceeding €3000. I think the title is accurate after all, if your Irish.
I haven't watched the vid (as I'm trying to not watch as much 'content' as in the past) but I think it's an interesting debate
Look @ full tilt poker. They had what appeared to be a healthy ecosystem that was created and sustained from an influx of $ from inside the company
If you look @ any official poker site today there's v little action. My theory is because there is no $ being put in.
You get a game when all the players have $ and think they are a favourite.
Now either the players don't have $
If this statement were true there would not be a casino open in the whole world, I doubt people think they can beat roulette yet they keep playing
Lots of people surviving off poker, lots of people thriving in poker.
Cost of living is super important, which is why you have tons of low-/mid-stakes volume grinders that can afford to live off their rakeback, and countries like the UK tend to have fewer, but fundamentally stronger, regs.
Not sure why any is trying to live off 5bb/100 these days anyway. Grow up and visit the casino.
absolute blackjack monster here checking in. not trolling.
He's 100% right, and he's a very elite player who surrounds himself with the best, plus he has sunrun for a long time. From 2004-2018ish you could quite easily make 100k-500k/year playing mid-high stakes cash, with some volume, game selecting (bumhunting) and generally being smart without much stress. You could even see a path to life changing money as high stakes was obtainable and justr a shot take away, if you lost a few bis you could recover, now you cannot. Now, you are lucky to eek out a much smaller amount, with probably 5x the effort, and even then the fish just do not exist as they did back then and rake is likely 3x higher. So even if you put all the effort into getting decent/good, you are up against mainly regs, with the odd fish thrown in vs people who are cheating you too. This is a complete and utter waste of time, unless your goal is to beat regs only, which is only going to get tougher and unless you reach high stakes, a total waste of time.
Furthermore, in NLH you are up against wizards in 200-1k games who do not make mistakes, all hunting the same fish, so you can either battle it out with them for a meager living, if you run better than the next reg that's just as good and hungry as you, or you switch to PLO where the variance 5xs and you are still up against very good players on the whole. Or switch to PLO5 and have a rollercoaster of a ride of absurd swings, but worse players. I think unless you absoutley godmode 200-300k hands at mid-highstakes you cannot make enough money to make it worthwhile or be sustainable and for how long until that ends? MTTs are a complete joke even if you're playing 50-75x mtts a day and are insanely good, you are still being cheated, colluded agianst and RTA'd, total that all up and then you have to run good in the end stages, all to eek out an ok living. That is unless you sunrun everything, which some people do but those are outliers.
The enegery and effort it takes is just not worth it, get a job (shudder) or build a business and play on the side and add in live cash games. Anyone that tells you different is literally on a heater or has very little ambition in life or lives in a 3rd world country or has very very low cost of living.
Thought I'd add in there is also a much larger cost that often goes unseen. If you spend all your time playing poker, battling with the above hurdles, you often miss out on other stuff in life, get left behind from your other non poker peers who end up excelling and end up filled with regret. It's not worth it in 2025, in 2010 it was well worth it but that came with similar unseen costs too.
Lots of people surviving off poker, lots of people thriving in poker.
Cost of living is super important, which is why you have tons of low-/mid-stakes volume grinders that can afford to live off their rakeback, and countries like the UK tend to have fewer, but fundamentally stronger, regs.
Not sure why any is trying to live off 5bb/100 these days anyway. Grow up and visit the casino.
Even in the UK if you can make even 80k a year, you are in the top 1% of earners when you consider most people have to pay income tax and poker players don't. Poker isn't like 2011 where you could print with little effort but it's still a very good career
He's 100% right, and he's a very elite player who surrounds himself with the best, plus he has sunrun for a long time. From 2004-2018ish you could quite easily make 100k-500k/year playing mid-high stakes cash, with some volume, game selecting (bumhunting) and generally being smart without much stress. You could even see a path to life changing money as high stakes was obtainable and justr a shot take away, if you lost a few bis you could recover, now you cannot. Now, you are lucky to eek out a m
I quit poker in 2016 and started playing for fun/side hustle in 2024. Back then I had about 8bb over a huge sample and playing just 500+, on the average 1k I think making around 300€ per hour.
Now I play 100+ on the average 500 and of course not a huge sample but 300k hands with 15bb making around the same per hour. Obv. a bit sunrunning. But let‘s say I make 100€ per hour tax free is just insane good money.
I have literally not played or study poker except reading the highstakes thread here.
When you got to this part I knew for sure you don't know what you're talking about.
I unequivocally know what I’m talking about - comparatively from the years I’ve stated vs now, it’s not even close to the same earning potential or ease of earnings.
Post your results crusher let’s see how great you’re doing in these games today over a real sample with ev included. You might well be the outlier who knows, kudos if you are. But I see you think $80K per year (not guaranteed) is a lot of money, perhaps you live in some **** hole up north where it costs peanuts to live.
I quit poker in 2016 and started playing for fun/side hustle in 2024. Back then I had about 8bb over a huge sample and playing just 500+, on the average 1k I think making around 300€ per hour.
Now I play 100+ on the average 500 and of course not a huge sample but 300k hands with 15bb making around the same per hour. Obv. a bit sunrunning. But let‘s say I make 100€ per hour tax free is just insane good money.
I have literally not played or study poker except reading the highstakes thread here.
Anyone can say anything. If you’re winning at 15bb/100 over 300K hands at 100-500nl which is what I think you’re saying or €100/hr (roughly 300k/yr is what you’re saying) then post some receipts. Restore my hope that online poker is actually a beatable endeavour for any decent money. But I’ll call bullshit.
Sure, it’s plo and plo5 tough.
I unequivocally know what I’m talking about - comparatively from the years I’ve stated vs now, it’s not even close to the same earning potential or ease of earnings.
Post your results crusher let’s see how great you’re doing in these games today over a real sample with ev included. You might well be the outlier who knows, kudos if you are. But I see you think $80K per year (not guaranteed) is a lot of money, perhaps you live in some **** hole up north where it costs peanuts to live.
Why so hostile? He stated that 80k/year is in the top 1% in the UK as an objective fact. Ironic how you accuse others of lying when you are the one making things up. Calm down and don't be a prick.
What that 80kpa is in the top 1% in the UK? I didn’t question that? just said it’s not a lot of money especiallt when it isn’t guaranteed. I was hostile because he told me I don’t know what I’m talking about with regards to the feasibility of making that amount, when I most certainly do lol. Ofc making 80kpa is decent, but it’s hardly a guarantee with what’s going on online these days.
What that 80kpa is in the top 1% in the UK? I didn’t question that? just said it’s not a lot of money especiallt when it isn’t guaranteed. I was hostile because he told me I don’t know what I’m talking about with regards to the feasibility of making that amount, when I most certainly do lol. Ofc making 80kpa is decent, but it’s hardly a guarantee with what’s going on online these days.
That is not at all what you said. Read what I quoted and read my comment on it. Breathe.
No doomswitch please
At a later time when you're not on tilt because others are still making bank playing online poker, read the following three posts in succession:
Even in the UK if you can make even 80k a year, you are in the top 1% of earners when you consider most people have to pay income tax and poker players don't. Poker isn't like 2011 where you could print with little effort but it's still a very good career
...
But I see you think $80K per year (not guaranteed) is a lot of money, perhaps you live in some **** hole up north where it costs peanuts to live.
The tax situation changes a lot. In my country it‘s tax free and I pay about 60% in tax and insurance on my normal business. It‘s almost impossible to earn 100€ per hour after tax just working.
