Israel/Palestine thread

Who knows what happens without Israel. Maybe Arab nationalism movement succeeds and Arabs become a united world power. Maybe the IRGC succeeds and they do. Maybe the cold war plays out differently and communism thrives.

I am not arguing I know Israel has been good for the US. But I think making the opposite argument isn’t correct either. You really can’t tell.

But things have generally gone so well when they didnt have to, all else being equal alternate histories are more likely to have gone worse than better IMO.

I would call you naive and ignorant.

Sorry I don’t really prescribe to the argument that Muslims and Arabs have no self agency and all the regressing they’ve done for the past century has been a direct result of Israeli and American international politics.

Well you were using fighting Hamas and Hezbollah as an example of ROI to the US for supporting Israel. Don't think it's controversial to say without Israel those organizations probably don't exist.

they have little agency as most of us do.

but the regressing was obviously caused by them going to bed with Marxists, as for any other people, when you touch Marxism enough it corrupts you irremediably

right it was totally the "Muslims" and "Arabs" fault that the White Empire decided to place a genocidal colony for expansion and expropriation right in the middle their land.

imagine replacing Muslim/Arab with Jew in this example. I mean, did the Jews not have some periods of, in your words, "regression"? rather than blaming the victims, maybe you should blame the White Supremacist Empire. in both cases.

The Jews and Israelis are doing exceptionally well, measured objectively across basically all factors. Maybe not athletics lol. They’ve been doing so well, they’ve become the target of more than a few conspiracy theories to try and rationalize how they are doing so well.

The Arab League didn’t have to start a war with the Jews but they did and they’ve never been able to get over the shame of defeat.

were they doing exceptionally well in Pharoah Egypt? in Nazi Germany? in Eastern Europe with the pogroms? in Spain during the Inquisition?

we know whos side you would be on during each of those events.

Doing well materially doesn't mean doing well in every sense. Look at the richest man in the world. He has nothing better to do than **** post on a social media platform he was forced to buy. Not too long ago he was posting anti-Semitic memes. Then he figures he has to go to Israel and kiss the Netanyahoos ass. Then he's doing the Bellamy salute to Trump while in the midst of burning down our government and bureaucracy, pretty much the essence of the Western Civilization he pretends to care about so much. He's mailing his sperm to women he doesn't even know to satisfy some dread about his masculinity.

Honestly, would you want to be the richest man in the world if you had to be in the mental state which would drive someone to behave in the way Musk is behaving?

When it comes to Israel, its citizens are celebrating the maiming and killing of children and cheering on rapists in their military. I wouldn't care if each Israeli citizen was as rich as Musk - they are not well. No one filled with hate and contempt is doing well.

They survived and outlasted all of those enemies. Did they conquer any of them?

The Palestinians are welcome to continue trying to eradicate the Jews and conquer Israel with kites and bottle rockets, at the cost of their society and the future of their children. The Israelis will continue to resist because at this point they’ve built a highly successful society and aren’t giving up the minuscule piece of land they inhabit.

If you cared about the Palestinians you’d be advocating for them to make peace and focus on creating an environment where their children have a future. But you don’t have any actual investment in the future of the Palestinians so who cares? Armed resistance sounds way cooler.

That’s why I said objective measures. I agree, being engaged in a forever war is probably not good for society and the Israelis have obviously been radicalized as well. Neither Israel nor the Palestinians ultimately benefit from the endless conflict but the Palestinians are losing drastically more from the situation of the past 80 or so years.

many didnt survive.

the point is that you would blame the victim in all of those cases.

you should reread my idiotic posts from 2023 and prior. I used to foolishly think that peace was possible with a genocidal ethnostate.

thats exactly what they are doing. the genocidal Supremacists that are currently starving millions of people are not going to graciously stop their expansionist project and lift the blockade in response to begging.

you should read up on the abolitionist movement. for hundreds of years the slavers used this same argument. the slaves were too dangerous and didnt want peace. maybe if they just knew how to properly ask.

its just another form of blaming the victim. or victim inversion. something that the Isrealis and their Supremacist backers excel at .

drastically more than what? more than the Israelis are losing? thats the nature of a native struggle against colonial Supremacist extractors. the Indians lost drastically more than the British. the Irish lost drastically more than the British. the Algerians lost drastically more than the French. the Vietnamese lost drastically more than the French, Japanese, and Americans.

or do you mean drastically more than if they capitulated? they would be slaughtered and incarcerated forever if they did that. Nasrallah and Sinwar always claimed that the price of capitulation was much more than the price of resistance. we are seeing that play out exactly as they predicted as Israel uses the farce of a ceasefire to continue its genocidal expansion in Palestine, Lebanon, and Syria. this is very similar to the fake treaties that the US settlers would sign with Native Americans that were just used to steal more land and resources.

I said the Palestinians are welcome to continue trying, I believe in their self-agency. But in 80 years they’ve only managed to to go backwards while the Israelis have prospered. My take is the situation is not going well and will never go well for the Palestinians on the current trajectory they’ve chosen. We can agree to disagree.

I am a doomer and not a true believer in the Resistance so I agree with you that they will likely be wiped out and in the next few decades parts of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt will be cleansed.

but I just dont blame the victim.

Personally, I wouldn’t apply such reductionist thinking to an issue that affects the lives of so many people, but that’s just me. We can agree to disagree on that and who the victim is. Both sides have committed atrocities, but it really doesn’t play into my overall viewpoint. Pragmatically, I think the Palestinians should look to build a future for their children in a peaceful environment. But we can agree to disagree. I don’t think this discussion is moving anywhere.

You are right. It is not fair to Israelis to say Arabs would behave the same. We know this because Arabs have a long history of behaving much worse. For 1300 years Arabs had an racist, Apartheid society, where Jews and Christians were codified as secondhand citizens (dhimni). Which was still better than blacks of course, who the Arab castrated (penis and testicles in case you were wondering, which was why the survival rate was below 50%) and kept as slaves (Gaza still has a section named the slave quarters "Al Abeed" in case you were wondering). And this was basically how things were for hundreds of years until the British came and forced humanity to this racist, slave owning, Apartheid culture in the late 19th century.

And we saw from the Arab response to Israel's formation (collective punishment of hundreds of thousands of MENA Jews that had nothing to do with Israel's formation) just how paper thin and devoid of any first principles their so called acceptance of Jews was.

Fast forward the last 100 years and the Arab world is a non stop orgy of Apartheid violence, pogroms, sectarian strife; where minority groups have little rights if they are allowed in at all. So yes, there is no reason to expect Palestinians would behave even a fraction as humane as the Israeli Jews. Who actually have a rule of law that protects minority groups, and it isn't just sectarian gangs in an endless zero sum struggle for supremacy, with zero regard for humanity.

The fact Arabs in Israel have more rights, freedom and liberty than they would in any Arab country says a lot.

oh right, unlike the European society.

Well, we were discussing Israel vs the Arab world. But if you want to bring Europe into it, they say a picture is worth 1000 words.

--Interestingly, looking at the MENA there is a little sliver of dark blue on the eastern edge of the Mediterranean. Wonder what is going on there?

Ghana 👍

you were talking about **** from the last 1300 ago to paint all Arabs as bad. apply the last 1300 years to European society. instead you chose some bullshit metric from a bullshit organization.

also, you didnt provide a link so Doyle will be around any minute to claim its fake or something.

It is exceedingly lame that kelhus talks about the distant past when during almost all that time it was much much much better to be a Jew in a Muslim country than in a Christian one. But, maybe he's a Christian identitarian and is really about the crusades like the secretary of defense.

It really didn't start being ok to be Jewish in a Christian country until the Christians become a lot less religious in general and in the USA the people like BNight who talk about demonic religions are pretty close to running the show again.

And you think Israel shouldn’t exist?