Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
But nobody knows for sure and we can only guess what could happen. But in the end, it's going to heavily come down to military might and the west is probably over 100x Irans in that category, and Im not exaggerating.
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but since WW2, US-led coalitions haven't had a lot of success achieving military objectives overseas. The only two successes have been keeping the North Koreans behind the 38th parallel and keeping Saddam out of Kuwait.
The goal of opposition forces is not to win a direct engagement right away, but to grind the US down cold war style, then come in when there is no more political will to maintain the global empire. Right now the debt-to-GDP ratio is above 1946 levels, all without the need for a hot war, let alone 4 years of completely devoting the economy to one. Given the unsustainability of the fiscal trajectory, and given the lack of political will to do anything to alter that trajectory (i.e. massive cuts to SS and medicare), the anti-West axis might as well keep up the low-intensity pressure and keep absorbing resources until the Berlin wall comes down on its own.
The Gazans, given that they are trapped in the open-air prison and are thus willing to make the biggest sacrifices, are the front line of the conflict. But given that Israel is terrible for US soft power and given that the younger generation is horrified by what they're seeing, US support could evaporate quicker than posters in this thread think.
Maybe it is just wishful thinking. But there is some speculation in the ether Hamas leaders are negotiating a withdrawal from Gaza, so the international community can come in and begin rebuilding.If/when this does happen it will be interesting to see how Israel and the rest of the world navigates all the Hamas soldiers left behind. Current facial recognition technology work
There were a ton of red triangle videos last week, and the headline on Bloomberg is that European countries are pressuring Israel to let aid in, so I doubt morale is as low as it would seem if you only follow Western press.
It's also not certain it comes down to military might. In the past the nightmare scenario has been that terrorists would get hold of a WMD but the future is mass cheap drones/etc available to all with ~no central control and which can make anywhere a nightmare to live/govern despite much higher tech defenses.
There were a ton of red triangle videos last week, and the headline on Bloomberg is that European countries are pressuring Israel to let aid in, so I doubt morale is as low as it would seem if you only follow Western press.
You are probably right. Probably wishful thinking that Hamas wants the war to end at all. As every Palestinian death is a victory for their death cult.
If Hamas wanted Palestinians to live, they would have let them into the underground city of tunnels they built before going to war, that they use to protect themselves.
Palestinians dying for the cause is the entire point of Hamas existence.
If Hamas wanted Palestinians to live, they would have let them into the underground city of tunnels they built before going to war, that they use to protect themselves.
Palestinians dying for the cause is the entire point of Hamas existence.
If you sold another family 25% of your land under the assumption that they were going to live according to the rules of your municipality, then a foreign governing body said that they now own 50% of it and can follow the rules of a municipality that you view as created out of thin air, and you got mad and tried to fight them, only to lose and be stuck in a cage while they lived a nice lifestyle subsidized by the richest and most powerful governing body in the world, you would be very, very mad about that. You would do anything to get your dignity back, even if it means dramatically increasing the % chance that you get killed.
'Death cult' encapsulates all of the above into a phrase that makes Palestinians look as bad as possible to the Western sensibility. As one of the least glib pro-Israel posters in this thread, I'm surprised you trot a phrase like that out thinking you are making a good argument.
Now you're using dead kids to score political points? Yeah. You're extremely tiresome vic.
Someone’s calling you…
As one of the least glib pro-Israel posters in this thread, I'm surprised you trot a phrase like that out thinking you are making a good argument.
lol, you have not been paying attention to his posting.
If you sold another family 25% of your land under the assumption that they were going to live according to the rules of your municipality, then a foreign governing body said that they now own 50% of it and can follow the rules of a municipality that you view as created out of thin air, and you got mad and tried to fight them, only to lose and be stuck in a cage while they lived
If I was a member of a brain washed death cult I might devote my life to avenging some **** that happened to my great grandparents.
If we go back far enough all of us had some ancestor that was wronged. Could you imagine telling your kids it was their duty to die as a martyr for their great grandparents honor? Of course not, it is preposterous.
I had ancestors that came to the US with nothing but a suitcase not long before 1948. I don’t know the exact circumstances, but I doubt things were great. It isn’t my mission to avenge some old world **** and reconquer whatever drove them out.
As I have said before, I blame the rest of the world more than the Palestinians for sticking them in Gaza and pushing and enabling the stupid zero sum ideology of revenge. People are just sheeple. They mostly do what their elites tell them too.
But the bottom line is Hamas is a death cult. Maximizing Palestinian civilian death is literally the goal. They stole international aid to build an underground tunnel complex to protect themselves from bombing, did a vicious raid to guarantee a strong response, and then hide in their tunnels and donÂ’t let any civilians in.
Whatever you think of Israel, there is no moral code that justifies this behavior.
The Palestinian cause is completely absurd. None of us would ever engage in anything like this, nor would we want our children too.
That being said, like I said before people are sheeple, so if we were indoctrinated and made generational refugees like them, sure it would sound like the right thing to do.
But let’s not pretend a generational never ending Holy War to reconquer our Great grandparents olive farm, that is now a parking garage anyways, is actually a reasonable life pursuit.
And it sucks that in 2025 the rest of the world has put them in this spot.
The usual suspects coming around to remind everyone that Jews defending themselves makes people uncomfortable so they should knock it out.
I dont completely disagree with this framework. Where I think my position and those of European leaders differ is that:
1. I dont just accept Hamas propaganda as truth as far as what is going on.
2. I think EVERYONE should be trying a lot harder to figure out a way to end the war and re-organize Palestinian society so they aren't de facto governed by a religious fundamentalist death cult that holds the people hostage and brags about how many martyrs they are getting killed it the process of fulfilling their religious mandates.
--Unfortunately, European leaders seem determined to just go back to the pre 10/7 status quo and ending the war and rebuild Gaza with Hamas holding the entire population hostage.
1) No way they're just accepting hamas propoganda.
2) Not endorsing your description but i generally agree. Including israel. But we can't just ignore what Israel is doing.
If I was a member of a brain washed death cult I might devote my life to avenging some **** that happened to my great grandparents.
Hey, talking about the Israeli government like this is antisemitic.
There were a ton of red triangle videos last week, and the headline on Bloomberg is that European countries are pressuring Israel to let aid in, so I doubt morale is as low as it would seem if you only follow Western press.
If there's a ton of red triangle videos then why should Israel engage in a ceasefire?
Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich gave a speech Monday defending Israel’s strategy of mass devastation in Gaza, saying humanitarian aid is only being allowed in “so the world does not stop us and accuse us of war crimes.” The goal, he insisted, is to “conquer, clear, and stay” until Gaza is dismantled beyond recognition.
▪️ On aid, Smotrich said only the care minimum will be allowed: “A few bakeries distributing pitas… a daily portion of cooked food. Citizens in Gaza will get a pita and a plate of food, and that’s it. That’s exactly what we see in the videos—people standing in line, waiting for a plate of soup.” The purpose, he admitted, is not relief but optics: “It allows the world to continue providing us with international protection.”
▪️ “We are annihilating everything that remains in the Strip,” he declared, “simply because it is one big city of terror.”
Now you're using dead kids to score political points? Yeah. You're extremely tiresome vic.
heres a political point for you.
Right. I pretend to oppose baby murder. Still better than gleefully reveling in it like yourself.
corporate bile spewing out his standard establishment lackey drivel I see.
Meanwhile in Gaza the genocide that he denies or says he doesn’t care about, I forget which it is today, continues
Nobody is reveling in baby murder except for Victor and his cronies, the resist by any means necessary crowd. Any means necessary means Hamas intentionally hiding among women and children. Everyone else would prefer that Hamas acted as an actual government and fielded a uniformed military that took measures to defend their civilians rather than martyr them to fuel wartime propaganda.
Every accusation is a confession.
It's also not certain it comes down to military might. In the past the nightmare scenario has been that terrorists would get hold of a WMD but the future is mass cheap drones/etc available to all with ~no central control and which can make anywhere a nightmare to live/govern despite much higher tech defenses.
Every weapon finds its countermeasure.
The UK has suspended its trade talks with Israel and the Foreign Secretary has called the latest Gaza offensive 'monstrous'.
https://www.thetimes.com/world/middle-ea...
17 of 27 EU foreign ministers voted to review the EU's trade links with Israel as well (and about a third of Israel's overseas trade is with the EU).
Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich gave a speech Monday defending Israel’s strategy of mass devastation in Gaza, saying humanitarian aid is only being allowed in “so the world does not stop us and accuse us of war crimes.” The goal, he insisted, is to “conquer, clear, and stay” until Gaza is dismantled beyond recognition.▪️ On aid, Smotrich said only the car
That does appear to be Israeli policy at present.
