GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
FG downplaying a team that beat a 64 win team and a team that beat a 62 win team. Never change FG.
Kukoc led the 94' Bulls in playoff BPM and was 2nd in WS/48 ahead of Pippen... So the new guy (not Jordan's cast) impacted the playoff differentials the most... Again, Thinking Basketball is a buffoon and amateur.
Just shows how stacked those Bulls were. Best 6th man in the league during that 2nd 3peat.
Faced down the great Buck Williams
^^^ Not with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player.
Lebron always needed franchise players from other teams to play 2nd and 3rd option for him, so high-scoring primary ball-handlers (ball-dominators) can't win with normal rosters.. Ball-dominators can't win with "normal" talent because of their weaker chemistry and skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter.
This means that the argument is whether Jaylen Williams is a franchise player, aka a player that teams would build around and task with building a lottery team from scratch... His elite scoring ability and talent says that he easily is, similar to young Westbrook or Harden.. Aside from a few goat passers, franchise players are normally dominant scorers, since lesser scorers hinder a team's capacity to add talent (i.e. any new scorer could replace the lesser scorer as 1st option - this is why secondary producers like Klay, Pippen or Middleton aren't considered franchise players).
A lot of teams have one-offs, but there's only a few instances of the BEST basketball, aka dynasties (3 in 5), or dominant title run (4 losses max, aka 1 loss avg per round)..
So again, Since possession-tracking began in 1997, bigs or jumpshooters were required at 1st option for 8 of 8 "dominant champions" that averaged 1 loss or less per round for their title run (4 losses max), and 4 of 4 "dynasties" that mostly won for a material stretch of 5 years (i.e. 3 in 5)
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^^^ Pippen nearly matched these shooting splits for the 93' Playoffs and shot 0% on threes with 59% FT's in the Finals...
The 93' Playoffs saw Pippen have the lowest-ever advanced stats for a winning sidekick on a title run, such as 16.9 PER, 2.0 BPM, 0.83 WS/48, 0.7 VORP, and 50 TS - that's easily the lowest ever combination of advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick
Buck was 2nd Team All-NBA at 22 years old and one of the strongest players ever - the only guy that Kemp ever feared:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/qUJ2Wj2g3...
Again, Chet is nothing compared to the prime 3rd option vets that Jordan faced like Buck, Majerle, Nance, Vlade or Schrempf... So Jordan faced tougher 3rd options, while the 4 thru 7 spots of his Finals opponents were decorated resumes of all-star, all-defense and 20 PPG - they weren't undecorated 3-pt robots like OKC's 4 thru 7 spots... And of course Magic/Worthy > Shai/Jaylen... Ditto Barkley/KJ... Malone/Stockton were also superior, while Hornacek > Chet (remember that Hornacek was a much bigger producer than Klay - see previous post above).
Just shows how stacked those Bulls were. Best 6th man in the league during that 2nd 3peat.
It shows how Pippen could only be 2nd option alongside the goat scorer, and any decent player will supplant Pippen as the true 2nd option.
Many people don't know that Kukoc hit 4 buzzer-beaters during the 94' regular season and then another one in the playoffs.. So when it really mattered, Phil chose rookie Kukoc over Pippen many times, and when Kukoc started alongside MJ in the 98' Playoffs (over Rodman), he was easily the 2nd-leading scorer in the 4th and clutch-time over Pippen,, Again, any decent player will supplant Pippen on a team's scoring hierarchy.
Pippen was a defender with worst-ever shooting splits on 3 title runs (previous post) and couldn't average 15 ppg outside the system, while Kukoc was the silky lefty and Euro version of Lamar Odom.. So Jordan 3-peated with Lamar Odom (Kukoc) and Jaden McDaniels (Pippen), whooptiwhoop.
People don't realize how little of Pippen's career that he was actually "good" for.. Specifically, Pippen had the lowest advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' playoffs, while also being bad from 88-90', 99-03', and 96-98' (17.6 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs)... That's nearly all of his career... 91' was the only year that Pippen didn't wet the bed, since his debacle against X-Man in the 92' playoffs nearly derailed the back-to-back run..
FG downplaying a team that beat a 64 win team and a team that beat a 62 win team. Never change FG.
I was more impressed when the 98' Jazz swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and the Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs.. Regular season records are a poor gauge of how a team ranks in any sort of historical context,
FG downplaying a team that beat a 64 win team and a team that beat a 62 win team. Never change FG.
Lebron faced 1 great team when he faced the response to "the decision" (KD Warriors).
Otherwise, Curry's Warriors were a consensus bad roster with +2800 preseason odds in 2015, but he carried this to 67 and 73 wins.. So it isn't impressive to beat a 1-man team with a "big 3" preseason favorite and the only super-team in the NBA...
And it's impossible to lose with a sidekick outplaying the league MVP, since that's like Pippen outplaying Barkley, or Mathurin outplaying SGA - it's impossible to lose in these scenarios... Yet Lebron's super-team got a 1-3 deficit against a 1-man team because Lebron averaged 24 ppg and 6 TO's thru 4 games.. The Draymond suspension renewed his hope..
Btw, Dwight and Baron Davis beat 67-win teams as enormous underdogs, yet no one says that they're better than Jordan because of it, smh
I said all of this so you won't bother with the "b-b-but he beat a 73-win team" when I ask you who beat more 50 and 60-win teams - MJ or Lebron?... how about Kobe or Lebron?
Congrats to OKC. The most DOMINATE team in point differential of all time.
You're being fooled... Players make 50 times what they used to, so they don't play hard in the regular season anymore, which makes sheer effort a big advantage and inflates high-winning "effort" teams.. This is why OKC's dominance cratered in the playoffs by almost losing to 2 teams that were 8th and 13th in SRS (Nuggets & Pacers).
So they're barely championship caliber by the slimmest of margins... And the "effort effect" of today's high salaries will continue to inflate the expectation of effort teams that do well in the regular season.
We saw other high energy or high effort teams like the 07' Mavs, 09' Cavs or even the 94' Bulls overachieve the regular season and crater in the playoffs... But none of them got anywhere near the title, so OKC's title as the first "effort" team shows how weak the era has become..
This change from the spoiled and pampered regular season to the playoffs where everyone is playing hard is why my criteria for great teams looks at the playoffs only - my criteria selects teams that won titles by averaging 1 loss per round (4 losses max), or "dynasties" (3 chips in 5 years)... In the 12 instances of these "great teams" occurring in the play-by-play era, highly-assisted bigs or jumpshooters were required at 1st option all 12 times, while low-assisted primary ball-handlers were 0 for 12 in leading these teams.. Ultimately, these 12 great teams were known for great ball movement or systems that requires ELITE off-ball players - this precludes primary ball-handlers from ever producing a great team as 1st option.
Hope this helps put the numbers you posted into perspective.
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Lebron-Wade was like Magic teaming up with Bird: 2010 Lebron...... #1 PER... #1 BPM... #1 WS/48... #1 VORP
2010 Wade'........ #2 PER... #2 BPM... #2 WS/48... #2 VORP
Lebron teamed up with Kobe-Pau II:2010 Wade......... 28.1 PER... 9.2 BPM
2010 Kobe.......... 21.4 PER... 4.4 BPM
2008 Pau............ 1x all-star... 0x All-NBA
2010 Bosh.......... 6x all-star... 1x All-NBA[/b]
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Summary of the 2010's
KD's Warriors stopped Lebron from continuing to get asterisk rings.
History shows that prior to KD's Warriors, Lebron's big 3 was the standard for stacking the deck and having an unprecedented advantage over the league.
Specifically, Lebron's 2011 cast superseded Kobe's championship cast from 2010 by having a better player than Pau at THIRD option (bosh) and a sidekick that was a much bigger producer than Kobe at that time (wade)... Lebron's "decision" also put the top 3 PER's in the NBA on 1 team, which produced several unprecedented advantages like 6 straight preseason favorites and a sidekick to outplay the MVP.
It would be considered entirely unfair if Jokic teamed up with Sengun and FMVP Shai, yet that's exactly what Lebron did with Bosh and FMVP Wade... Lebron's unprecedented advantage lasted twice as long as KD's (11-16' vs 17-19').
Ultimately, Lebron isn't top 10 because winning as his team's 1st option required teaming up with multiple opposing franchise players.. His skillset of imposing spot-up roles lacks the chemistry, young player development, or strategic capacity/coaching to win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, aka organically.
You're being fooled... Players make 50 times what they used to, so they don't play hard in the regular season anymore, which makes sheer effort a big advantage and inflates high-winning "effort" teams.. This is why OKC's dominance cratered in the playoffs by almost losing to 2 teams that were 8th and 13th in SRS (Nuggets & Pacers).So they're barely championship caliber by the s
lol…….
^^^ Not with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player.Lebron always needed franchise players from other teams to play 2nd and 3rd option for him, so high-scoring primary ball-handlers (ball-dominators) can't win with normal rosters.. Ball-dominators can't win with "normal" talent because of their weaker chemistry and skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter.This means th
U can tell yourself any story u want .
They won ….
Good enough regardless .
No
Wade is no way near magic or bird talent .
I take Kobe over dwade for example .
KD over dwade too…
But again u take 1 year and try make a case for years long smh
Wade's numbers from 2005-2012 were mostly better than Kobe's and he was absolutely top 3 player in the league.. He was still 26 PER and top 5 in everything in 2012 despite handing the team over to Lebron.
Accordingly, top 3 caliber = Bird/Magic caliber (relative to competition)..
In addition to Wade being equal or better than 2010 Kobe, Bosh was better than Pau.. So again, Lebron teamed up with "Kobe-Pau II" to supersede Kobe's 2010 cast and have an advantage on the whole league, which included the top 3 PER's on 1 team.
Since Lebron's big 3 was the standard for stacking the deck and having an unprecedented advantage over the league, KD's Warriors merely stopped Lebron from continuing to get asterisk rings.. Essentially, they BOTH have asterisk rings, except Lebron's unprecedented advantage of 6 straight preseason favorites lasted twice as long as KD's (11-16' vs 17-19')... TLDR: they're both frauds that won asterisk rings, but Lebron started it
well at least we agree Kobe was terrible.
FG "Regular season stats don't matter"
FG
You are amazing.
It's worthwhile to compare Wade, Kobe and Lebron's playoff performance against the 2010 Celtics because it's a perfect gauge of all three in their prime against the same comp.
Wade was clearly the best player out of the three.
Specifically, only Wade dominated the KG Celtics, while Kobe and Lebron were contained or shut down in various series.
Wade's superiority is why he was 1st option in the 2011 Playoffs over Lebron, while Lebron was 2nd option and the apprentice.. Wade even led the Heat in scoring and assists when Lebron finally got past the bully Celtics in the 11' ECSF.. That's like Larry Bird coming along and leading the way when MJ finally got past the Bad Boys in 91'.
So Lebron got an unmatched advantage by getting a sidekick to match Kobe and a 3rd option that was better than Pau... This is why Lebron's rings were asterisks that KD needed to stop.
You should be aware that if the Heat had beaten the Mavs in 2011 to get Lebron his 1st ring, it would've been considered an asterisk ring - no one would've respected it... The only reason that people forgot his unprecedented deck-stacking and started to respect his rings is because his historic chokes in 10' or 11' and continued futility made him into a sympathetic underdog... So people forgot that he stacked the deck by teaming up with "Kobe-Pau II", while hand-picking the preseason favorite and having the only super-team in the league.
Did you quote the wrong post? Your reply had nothing to do with what I said.
Legitimately concerned about your wellbeing.
You complained about regular season stats, so I used playoff stats to show that Wade was on the same level as Kobe or Lebron (and actually higher than both).
So stop projecting - you're the one in disbelief that Lebron is so bad compared to MJ or Kobe, and that you fell for a fraud.
Lebron made sure to supersede the 2010 Lakers by getting a Kobe-like sidekick and a 3rd option that's better than Pau - so his rings were asterisk rings that KD stopped by joining the Warriors.
The only reason people forgot Lebron's unprecedented deck-stacking and started to respect his rings is because his historic chokes in 10' or 11' made him a sympathetic underdog... So people forgot that he stacked the deck by teaming up with "Kobe-Pau II", while hand-picking 6 straight preseason favorites from 11' to 16', and also having the only super-team in the league.
^^^ This is what everyone says after their hail mary "90's was plumbers & firemen" argument gets defeated.. The plumbers argument is always their final argument, and once that fails, it's just "you're crazy"... That's all they have left... So I guess that's my cue to declare victory (again) itt
