Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
Israel strikes anytime a crowd forms.
killing malnourished children waiting for nutritional supplements. opposing this is antisemitism.
Iran ballistic missiles and drones raining down on Israel last month was a wake up call to just how urgent it is to neutralize the southern front once and for all. The last thing Israel can afford is Iran coordinating with a reconstructed Gazan proxy if/when the next time Israel is attacked. After 10/7 Israel accepted there is no political situation possible with Iran and its
It was 20 deaths. The IDF has insanely good armor, which saves a ton of lives from IEDs/RPGs, but many of those soldiers are horribly maimed. They don't release full casualty figures.
It's all fun and games when they are doing it to the Palestinians via airstrikes, but there are a lot of IDF soldiers returning from Gaza with horrible burns, limbless, and/or in wheelchairs (not to mention PTSD). Even with the military trying to sweep the non-fatal casualties under the rug, I wouldn't want to be driving an armored bulldozer or especially operating an excavator (the IDF Hannibaled one of these poor saps that was getting dragged into a tunnel a couple days ago). I can't imagine people are lining up to perform the noble task of destroying every home in Gaza.
killing children for fun and profit. remember, that hoping for the defeat of the Army doing this is antisemitism.
It was 20 deaths. The IDF has insanely good armor, which saves a ton of lives from IEDs/RPGs, but many of those soldiers are horribly maimed. They don't release full casualty figures. It's all fun and games when they are doing it to the Palestinians via airstrikes, but there are a lot of IDF soldiers returning from Gaza with horrible burns, limbless, and/or in wheelchairs (not
Yeah. War sucks. But the IRGC and their Arab paramilitaries have been promising this fight for decades, and Israel accepts they are very serious, and time isn't on their side.
So they are dying in (hopefully small) numbers in the streets of Gaza now when they have the initiative, so it isn't large numbers in the streets of Tel Aviv later when they dont.
I understand you are a pessimist who thinks Jews are going to eventually be dying the streets of Tel Aviv no matter what, and they should emigrate to greener pastures. But at the same time, you have to accept that a lot of people in Israel are not as pessimistic as you, so they are trying to engineer a different fate for themselves.
FWIW, I tend to lean towards pessimism myself how this is likely to work out. I think with the fall of Pax Americana and the rise of immoral* powers like Russia, China and India the whole world is kind of ****ed. And what is going on in Gaza, Ukraine and much of Africa is just a harbinger of things to come for the entire world.
But at the same time, if Netanyahu's gambit works and the IRGC and their paramilitaries can be pushed out of the region and more peaceful actors fill the void, history may never treat him personally kindly; but the Palestinian and Israeli people can move on and live their lives peacefully and wont be stuck in a nihilistic cycle of trying to undo events that happened 80 years ago.
*Immoral is probably the wrong word. But these actors definitely have the viewpoint towards the outside world that barbarians (whether they be Russian, Arab or Africans) should just fight it out, and they will ally with the victors and hold no moral judgment.
And this attitude is going to incentivize a lot more violence and suffering than what Pax Americana was able to impose for the last 75 years following WWII.
it is a bad thought experiment and framing question with the veil of ignorance does imply a truly bad thinking process about moral realities.
Not randomly, the veil of ignorance was invented by a radical psycothic ultra leftist. Which is why it shouldn't be used and people using it should be mocked
I think you should just work through the reasons the thought experiment doesn’t work instead of dismissing it out of hand. You can have your answer to the veil of ignorance and then update based off your posterior beliefs coming out of the veil.
It’s not designed to show how you should design an actual society, just a society that you would design if you didn’t know where you would start.
Having a strong negative reaction to a thought experiment doesn’t make it bad. Some people have strong negative reactions to the trolley problem too.
Then open the gate and let's grab some popcorn.
yes and lets feast on the spectacle of a quarrel in a far away country, between people of whom we know nothing.
I think you should just work through the reasons the thought experiment doesn’t work instead of dismissing it out of hand. You can have your answer to the veil of ignorance and then update based off your posterior beliefs coming out of the veil.It’s not designed to show how you should design an actual society, just a society that you would design if you didn’t know where you wo
Some trolley problems are framed so bad it's correct to have very strong reactions toward them. Others aren't.
The veil of ignorance is framed as bad as you can frame a thought experiment. Because THERE IS NO YOU THAT CAN MOVE ACROSS BODIES. There just isn't. You don't exist "at random" within the distribution of a society either. You only exist int he specific form you are, otherwise you aren't.
It's not just you, but with an additional power, and without some specific element you have now (that would be a thought experiment). It's not you at all in the slightest. It's an attempt to claim you "can be others just by thinking about it", a denial of the fact that we are unique and non subsistutable because of our personal history and our ancestors. It's a premise for utilitarianism as well, which is one of the most horrific moral frameworks every existed (less bad than marxism but close).
It was 20 deaths. The IDF has insanely good armor, which saves a ton of lives from IEDs/RPGs, but many of those soldiers are horribly maimed. They don't release full casualty figures. It's all fun and games when they are doing it to the Palestinians via airstrikes,
If you want to convince me that it would be moral to carpet bomb Gaza from the air until the last hamas member or helper is dead, this would be it.
Some trolley problems are framed so bad it's correct to have very strong reactions toward them. Others aren't.The veil of ignorance is framed as bad as you can frame a thought experiment. Because THERE IS NO YOU THAT CAN MOVE ACROSS BODIES. There just isn't. You don't exist "at random" within the distribution of a society either. You only exist int he specific form you are, oth
That’s not really a good objection. If I think about a possible world, I don’t have to be committed to the existence of a possible world. I can be on the outside looking in and just answer questions about what I think the possible world would look like.
Also this would lead to absurd conclusions like “if I had one less cheerio for breakfast, that wouldn’t be me” simply because you did not indeed have one less cheerio for breakfast. Most people would want to be open to the possibility of at least being able to think about possible world semantics without having to think that there is only in actuality one possible world with one possible way reality is grounded, with everything necessarily being the case.
i agree with eigenrobot
Israelis lynched an American citizen in the West Bank who was visiting his family. a mob of superior men beat the lesser man to death. opposing them is antisemitic.
Israelis lynched an American citizen in the West Bank who was visiting his family. a mob of superior men beat the lesser man to death. opposing them is antisemitic.
If the Israelis can justify blowing up thousands of Palestinian women and children they will have zero problem with one lone American.
yes and lets feast on the spectacle of a quarrel in a far away country, between people of whom we know nothing.
We know plenty about one of the groups because they're mostly Europeans and Americans or recently descended from them.
Even the staunchest Israeli here before BLUE arrived was a French Canadian ffs.
"american citizen" name is Sayfollah Musallet, a palestinian who was visiting his family (and if you choose to travel to those lands in these days, you get what you deserve) that's why viktor cares.
That's just an example of why birthright citizenship is a grotesque joke, an insult to our countries.
We know plenty about one of the groups because they're mostly Europeans and Americans or recently descended from them.
Even the staunchest Israeli here before BLUE arrived was a French Canadian ffs.
Very odd response but i'll go with it. I suspect the czechoslavakians were mostly European.
"american citizen" name is Sayfollah Musallet, a palestinian who was visiting his family (and if you choose to travel to those lands in these days, you get what you deserve) that's why viktor cares.
That's just an example of why birthright citizenship is a grotesque joke, an insult to our countries.
liberals will be shocked by your candidness, but they agree with you.
We know plenty about one of the groups because they're mostly Europeans and Americans or recently descended from them.
Even the staunchest Israeli here before BLUE arrived was a French Canadian ffs.
I would say the Muslim world, including Muslims who are not from the ME, Europe or the US are more invested in this conflict than even Europeans or Americans.
This has more to do with religious/ideological coded tribalism than geographism IMO. The whole, "I care because my tax dollars are paying for this," just comes across as real bad faith IMO. Because American tax dollars pay for a lot of **** that no one cares or knows about.
