Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
I believe the downside is legitimizing terrorist groups like Hamas and awarding them a state while they’ve made it clear they have little intention of building something sustainable. A government and nation with the primary purpose of turning international aid into weapons to kill Jews is not a self-sustainable project.
I do agree however that in the end it’s really not a big deal because they’re already doing that and much of the world seems content to lend their support.
I agree a downside is it being some sort of reward for terrorist groups.
Have to do it anyway and unfortunately all the damage netanyhau has done to israel is a reward for terrorism.
I agree a downside is it being some sort of reward for terrorist groups.
Have to do it anyway and unfortunately all the damage netanyhau has done to israel is a reward for terrorism.
Sure, but you have to acknowledge that it is a two way street. Netanyahu and the Israeli far right has been manifested from generations of dealing with Islamic terrorists.
I dont generally disagree at all. The dynamic is a classic tit for tat escalation of bitterness, hatred and horrors. With desperate attempts at 'this time it will be a once and for all victory'.
The only alternative is politics. Or the most attrocious crimes imaginable.
I dont generally disagree at all. The dynamic is a classic tit for tat escalation of bitterness, hatred and horrors. With desperate attempts at 'this time it will be a once and for all victory'.
The only alternative is politics. Or the most attrocious crimes imaginable.
Hamas has rejected every single attempt at a resolution. After all these pages and posts Im still unclear on what your political solution looks like. I would agree with you but it’s not a realistic solution under the current conditions.
Hamas has rejected every single attempt at a resolution. After all these pages and posts Im still unclear on what your political solution looks like. I would agree with you but it’s not a realistic solution under the current conditions.
By all accounts their last set of demands to end the war was so ridiculous Qatar mediators said they wouldn't even bother to send it to Israel. And everyone just went home.
Hamas has opposed political resolutions at every opportunity and every time it participates, it openly says it's just a step in the eventual elimination of the state of Israel.
Many deluded themselves into thinking they were keeping up appearances. In truth, some political factions in Hamas were probably more practical and were willing to negotiate for a de-facto two-state solution. Nonetheless, the reality on the ground is the militant factions over time have won. The Hamas political leaders fed the Gazans' and the rank and file enough koolaid and created a monster they lost control over.
Hamas has rejected every single attempt at a resolution. After all these pages and posts Im still unclear on what your political solution looks like. I would agree with you but it’s not a realistic solution under the current conditions.
No-one knows what it looks like. we don't start at the end.
You have no solution either. The difference is about actions and approaches.
Hamas has rejected every single attempt at a resolution. After all these pages and posts Im still unclear on what your political solution looks like. I would agree with you but it’s not a realistic solution under the current conditions.
they literally agreed to multi step ceasefire in January that Israel broke by mass murdering hundreds of kids in a few hours. like, you guys deny basic observed reality. its truly amazing.
By all accounts their last set of demands to end the war was so ridiculous Qatar mediators said they wouldn't even bother to send it to Israel. And everyone just went home.
their demands are a withdrawal of Israel forces, humanitarian aid, and a prisoner swap. so you know, I get that you guys think that basic human rights are rediculous.
The only fair solution is to give US/CAN/AUS passports to every person not convicted of a serious offence in Palestine and Israel, open the borders between Israel, Gaza and the West Bank and let people choose where to live with emigrees abroad given subsistence while they resettle.
Israel is not going to be dissolved. It’s an established first world nation. The Palestinians can agree to live along side Israel or continue to live in a perpetual state of refugee hood and poverty. I’m just going to assume that was a poor attempt at comedy.
he said "fair". he didnt say politically likely.
regardless,
The Palestinians can agree to live along side Israel
this is a thing that they already did in the West Bank and Gaza. it turns out, living next to millions of heavily armed people whose ideology is predicated on extermination allowed for a genocide.
That's a repeated rhetorical attack but it's nothing more than that and never will be however often it's made.
Those supporting so much death and destruction have no idea either.
they have an idea. and we are watching it play out as they murder millions of people.
he said "fair". he didnt say politically likely.
regardless,
this is a thing that they already did in the West Bank and Gaza. it turns out, living next to millions of heavily armed people whose ideology is predicated on extermination allowed for a genocide.
October 7th was living peacefully alongside Israel? Not acknowledging Israel’s right to exist and calling for its destruction?
Wouldn’t want to be your neighbor.
October 7th was living peacefully alongside Israel?
they were living under an oppressive and murderous siege. they asked nicely for peace for decades and what did that get them? massacre after massacre and a brutal blockade.
Not acknowledging Israel’s right to exist
this is not violence dawg
The Palestinians can agree to live along side Israel
this is a thing that they already did in the West Bank and Gaza.
goalposts moving hardcore. you can’t agree to live alongside a country you actively deny the right to exist of. and it’s no small thing because there are entire structures of ideologues who consider it a great honor to die for the cause, precisely because they deny Israel’s right to exist.
so no it’s not some trivial matter that you can dismiss so easily.
I believe the downside is legitimizing terrorist groups like Hamas and awarding them a state while they’ve made it clear they have little intention of building something sustainable. A government and nation with the primary purpose of turning international aid into weapons to kill Jews is not a self-sustainable project.I do agree however that in the end it’s really not a big d
We can just force Hamas out if we give Israel a right to exist. Force in their constitution that they will ban all jihadism. We don’t need a perfectly liberal state there, we need something that will fit the needs of the citizens of Palestine and also fit the security needs of Israel.
Egypt and Jordan did 'this' (agreeing to live alongside Israel, post-1973), but the PLO, PA and more recently and particularly Hamas decidedly didn't. Though it is true that Israel has never had any intention of living in peace with the Palestinians and its long-term policy is aggressively directed at land acquisition and the liquidation of Palestinians as a people. And plenty of Zionists will cheerfully tell you that, including in this thread.
goalposts moving hardcore. you can’t agree to live alongside a country you actively deny the right to exist of. and it’s no small thing because there are entire structures of ideologues who consider it a great honor to die for the cause, precisely because they deny Israel’s right to exist.
so no it’s not some trivial matter that you can dismiss so easily.
Egypt and Jordan did 'this' (agreeing to live alongside Israel, post-1973), but the PLO, PA and more recently and particularly Hamas decidedly didn't. Though it is true that Israel has never had any intention of living in peace with the Palestinians and its long-term policy is aggressively directed at land acquisition and the liquidation of Palestinians as a people. And plenty
PLO signed the Oslo accords and Hamas offered a 10 year truce to establish a peaceful state alongside Israel.
Israel responded with violence, annexation, occupation, assassinations, and a brutal blockade. the have every right to fight the people besieging them.
PLO signed the Oslo accords and Hamas offered a 10 year truce to establish a peaceful state alongside Israel.
Israel responded with violence, annexation, occupation, assassinations, and a brutal blockade. the have every right to fight the people besieging them.
This doesn’t even make any sense. You just keep on living under the delusion that Hamas should have started this war. And understand, Hamas still refuses to recognize Israel’s right to exist while they celebrate the martyring of more innocent civilians. It’s sick.
Hamas still refuses to recognize Israel’s right to exist
why is this necessary for peace? its got nothing to do with it.
you and Israel dont want peace. you want the Resistance to put their weapons down so they can be slaughtered quicker.
That's a repeated rhetorical attack but it's nothing more than that and never will be however often it's made.
Those supporting so much death and destruction have no idea either.
It’s not a rhetorical attack. I’m pointing out that what you’re proposing is an idealistic fantasy at present. This is evidenced by you not being able to offer up even the slightest hint of what this political solution would look like
It’s worth noting that Victor’s interpretation of historical events and perspective on the current situation are so perverted that if he described them to someone without using the worlds Israel and Palestine they would have no idea to what he’s referring.
