GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
The 1st three-peat Bulls were 15th, 13th and 12th in rebounds, while the 2007-2010 Cavs were 2nd, 3rd, 7th, and 11th:
Good rebounders on 1990-1993 Bulls:
Grant
Pippen
Good rebounders on 2006-2010 Cavs:
Boozer
Gooden
Zydrunas
Varejao
Shaq
Jamison
Ben Wallace
The 2006 to 2010 Cavs had far superior rebounding help, rim protection, defenses and scoring help.
why u leave out rodman ?
and again that wasnt the argument but im glad u agree to add pippen and grant to the first list u made that was dishonest....
lol , no one ever argued those 3 names..but if now u admit pippen is comparable to those 3 players to pippen ...well thank you proving our point lolpippen is more comparable to those 3 great players then all those idiot players u claim are good lol...you just contradict years of narrative that lebron had much better players then mj had with pippen while now u can only wins argu
I wonder where Mo is on those lists?
Scott Williams, Perdue, Levingston were all good rebounders.
And why are we counting rebounds anyway?
There's little correlation between rebounds and success. Here's last years top rebounding teams
Mo, slightly improved to the quality of the 4th best guy on a good team.
He then joined LeBron and got better (significantly) and became an all star.
His OBPM increased from 0.9 to 1.7, so that's nearly 100% increase from 07' to 08'... His WS/48 and VORP increased 50%.
So it wasn't "slightly", and it helps explain Mo's continued growth in 09'.
Otoh, Mo is credited with improving Lebron's game in 2009, and Lebron WASN'T growing each year -Lebron had the same stats from 06' to 08', and then he exploded when Mo's spacing arrived to open the lane for his stiff-arm.
Mo improved Lebron's game in 2009, and Lebron WASN'T growing each year -Lebron had the same stats from 06' to 08', and then he exploded when Mo's spacing arrived to open the lane for his stiff-arm.
You can't compare the advanced stats of players of different usage/roles (shot attempts) - this is according to bballref, and it was posted a couple pages ago here in response to your initial claim about Kukoc.
Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat
PLAYOFFS
14' Wade..... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm.. 28.6 pts per 100.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm.. 26.2 pts per 100.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg
The only guys that averaged 6+ rebounds alongside MJ were Pippen, Rodman, Grant, Oakley, Corzine, and Cartwright, while here's a PARTIAL list of guys that averaged 6+ rebounds alongside Lebron:
Boozer
Gooden
Zydrunas
Varejao
Shaq
Jamison
Ben Wallace
Mosgov
Bosh
Love
Tristan
McGee
Drummond
AD
Westbrook
Vanderbilt
Thomas Bryant
Kuzma
Montrezl Harrell
Dwight Howard
But it adds to the list of advantages that the 06-10' Cavs had over the 90-93' Bulls, which includes rim protection, rebounding, defensive ranking and scoring help... I also think they had more passing help because Lebron played with several good passers like Snow, Hughes, and Mo, while Jordan only played with one (pippen).
His OBPM increased from 0.9 to 1.7, so that's nearly 100% increase from 07' to 08'... His WS/48 and VORP increased 50%.
So it wasn't "slightly", and it helps explain Mo's continued growth in 09'.
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lol. So.. so... bad.. and you know it.
Anyway, we've moved on from Mo. No one thinks he was amazing.
He was a okay player, that had two good years with LeBron and then did nothing afterwards.
Let's move on.
The only guys that averaged 6+ rebounds alongside MJ were Pippen, Rodman, Grant, Oakley, Corzine, and Cartwright, while here's a PARTIAL list of guys that averaged 6+ rebounds alongside Lebron:
Boozer
Gooden
Zydrunas
Varejao
Shaq
Jamison
Ben Wallace
Mosgov
Bosh
Love
Tristan
McGee
Drummond
AD
Westbrook
Vanderbilt
Thomas Bryant
Kuzma
Montrezl Harrell
Dwight Howard
My favourite bit of your earlier list was having Boozer on it, when he didn't even play with LeBron between 06 and 10.
Or when Shaq played 53 games with him and averaged 6.7 rebounds as a center.
Or Jamieson, who played 25 games with him and averaged 7.7 boards.
By fg logic, a man that slept with 30 women was more deeply loved than a man faithfully married for four decades.
His OBPM increased from 0.9 to 1.7, so that's nearly 100% increase from 07' to 08'... His WS/48 and VORP increased 50%.So it wasn't "slightly", and it helps explain Mo's continued growth in 09'.Otoh, Mo is credited with improving Lebron's game in 2009, and Lebron WASN'T growing each year -Lebron had the same stats from 06' to 08', and then he exploded when Mo's spacing arrived
Well seem we had a breakthrough, congrats FG.
Starting comparing apple to apple , leaving nonsense narrative about pippen.
Yeah, I think most people understand a Wade vs Pippen comparison.
Old Shaq would've been the best center that Jordan ever had.... by far.
The 2006-2010 Cavs had far better rim protection, rebounding help, defensive ranking, scoring help and passing help..
How do you think the Cavs nearly beat the 08' Celtics with Lebron playing worse than anyone ever has in a series??? (35% and 5 TO's = woat)... It's because they had the best defense and rebounding in the league for several years, which held the Celtics far below their normal scoring levels.
Jamison averaged 22/9 before cratering to 15/8 after joining Lebron...
I would rank Lebron's top 10 destruction of teammates as follows:
1) Love
2) Jamison
3) Hughes
4) Bosh
5) IT
6) Ingram
7) Westbrook
8) Kuzma
9) Drummond
10) Clarkson
11) Wood
It's statistical fact that Lebron increases teammates' assisted buckets (assisted rate), and these spot-up roles crater their assists, thus producing low assist teams.. This matters because every series that Lebron lost in the playoffs showed deficits in team assists, except the 11' Finals.. So the only time that Lebron's team out-assisted the opponent and lost is widely regarded as the biggest choke in sports history.
Btw, remember when the 04' Pistons picked up Rasheed Wallace halfway through the year, and it was the big boost needed for them to run the table thereafter and win the title??... That's what Jamison was supposed to be for the Cavs - he was a coveted acquisition that was chosen over Amare... He also outplayed Lebron in the 07' 1st Round and was a 20k scorer.. So it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen at 3rd option and better team defenses too.
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The "bron-ball" skillset couldn't develop 4 guys that were already better than 1990:
05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D
09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
0 teammates grew from low producer to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch because his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter.
You've lost the debate so badly, that you're left with PRETENDING that you've never seen that Wade/Pippen comparison before...
It's all you can do because every point you make gets shut down with the facts and stats, so you must deflect and pretend.
It isn't apples to apples because Wade was a 1st option FMVP that was stuffed into a 2nd option role, so he isn't comparable to a career 2nd, 3rd, and 4th option like Pippen.
Pippen was a system player and his production outside the system was worse than Jeff Green or Horry, let alone guys like Mo, Zydrunas, Jamison and Hughes.. All these guys started out much better than Pippen and were better than 1990 Pippen (see previous post), but Lebron's skillset can't grow young players because he turns everyone into spot-up shooter.
Ultimately, you guys overrate Pippen because you don't realize that 1 steal is worth 1 point in BPM or VORP, which inflates these advanced stats for Pippen, or other steals artists like Stockton - Stockton and Bird have better DBPM and DRTG than Pippen for this reason - they're steals artists, and Bird also had higher defensive rebounds.
Otherwise, when we look at stats that aren't steals-counters, we see that Pippen ranks about 150th in PER, WS/48 or OBPM, and outside the top 250 in PPG and efficiency... lol... stop overrating this guy - NO ONE thought he was that good in the 90's or on Ewing's level for example, or Malone, Barkley, MJ, etc.. No one thought he was anywhere NEAR this level.. He got All-NBA awards because they were largely ceremonial back then and the media voted for Jordan/Pip together like a joint ticket or something... No one cared because no one paid attention to these ceremonial awards.. It's only 30 years later that people think a bum like Pippen was a franchise player and on the level of MJ, Magic, Hakeem, Malone, Barkley, etc... It's 100% lunacy - no one thought Pippen was that good in the 90's, and NO ONE THOUGHT the bulls were "stacked".. that's a 100% new lie that Klutch Sports and new fans spout as propaganda.. The numbers support everything that I've said.
His OBPM increased 100% in the year before joining Lebron, yet you're saying this is bad evidence that he was growing?
nice try.
it's great evidence and it's the only evidence I need, yet we have VORP and WS/48 to prove that Mo was a growing player at that time, just like many guys are at those ages.
Anyway, we've moved on from Mo. No one thinks he was amazing.
He was a okay player, that had two good years with LeBron and then did nothing afterwards.
Let's move on.
We haven't looked at how much mo's spacing UNLOCKED lebron's game:
Regular season
08' Lebron....... 29.1 PER.... 10.9 BPM.... 0.242 WS/48..... 9.8 VORP
09' Lebron....... 31.7 PER.... 13.2 BPM.... 0.318 WS/48... 11.8 VORP
Playoffs
08' Lebron....... 24.3 PER... 10.1 BPM.... 0.187 WS/48.... 1.7 VORP
09' Lebron....... 37.4 PER... 17.2 BPM.... 0.399 WS/48.... 2.9 VORP
^^^^ due to that, every coach thereafter knew that Lebron NEEDS SPACING.. Otoh, guys with great jumpshooting from mid-range or three-point range can shoot over packed paints and don't need spacing, such as SGA, MJ, or Kobe.. i.e. MJ and Kobe won with bad 3-point shooting teams, while SGA's team shot horribly in the playoffs and Finals (30%).
Ultimately, lebron was LOCKED UP in the 07' and 08' Playoffs, but Mo's saved Lebron from making it 3 years in a row
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and then Lebron lost as a bigger favorite (-700) than OKC was against the Pacers (-500)
lebron said himself that he "f*cked up" and should've won with Mo.
unfortunately, he wasn't good enough to win with the #3 defense and 18 on 38% from Mo, even though MJ always won with that from Pippen, and much worse.
lebron fails to carry the scoring load against top teams because he's too ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so he needs a teammate to match his scoring, such as Wade, Kyrie or AD...
and it's impossible to win if the star turns into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time (last 5 within 5).. One of Lebron's biggest chokes was his 7 TO's in the 4th of Game 4, which swung the series.. Lebron has always been massive butterfingers in the clutch, as we've seen in recent losses to the T'Wolves or Nuggets
Of course he also had a goat defensive blunder by guarding Courtney lee instead of Hedo - this alone cost the series.. so the historic upset loss was Lebron's fault, if we're judging him by the goat standard - he fails drastically - an F grade based on all the aforementioned factors.
and then Lebron lost as a bigger favorite (-700) than OKC was against the Pacers (-500)lebron said himself that he "f*cked up" and should've won with Mo.unfortunately, he wasn't good enough to win with the #3 defense and 18 on 38% from Mo, even though MJ always won with that from Pippen, and much worse.lebron fails to carry the scoring load against top teams because he's too ba
2015
lebron 35/13/8
second option mozgov 14/7/1
2009
lebron 38/8/8
second option mo 18/4/3
yup lebron cant carry the load and its lebron fault...
just 20ppg more then his second option, twice shrug
1987
mj 35/7/6
second option oakley 20/15/2
mj couldnt even win 1 game because he "fails to carry the scoring load against top teams because he's too ball-dominant at high scoring levels"...
1988
mj 27/8/4 yuck....
lost because he "fails to carry the scoring load against top teams because he's too ball-dominant at high scoring levels"...
1989
mj 25/9/6 ouch...
lost because he "fails to carry the scoring load against top teams because he's too ball-dominant at high scoring levels"...
2015 lebron 35/13/8second option mozgov 14/7/12009 lebron 38/8/8second option mo 18/4/3yup lebron cant carry the load and its lebron fault...just 20ppg more then his second option, twice shrug1987mj 35/7/6second option oakley 20/15/2mj couldnt even win 1 game because he "fails to carry the scoring load against top teams because he's too ball-dominant at high scoring levels"...
Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, while MJ did many times - MJ won with what Lebron couldn't:
09' Mo Will vs #4 SRS Magic'.............. 18 on 38%........ #3 team defense
89' Pippen' vs #1 SRS Cavs................. 15 on 40%...... #11 team defense
97' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Heat................. 16 on 39%........ #4 team defense
98' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Pacers.............. 17 on 39%........ #9 team defense
98' Pippen' vs #3 SRS Jazz'.................. 16 on 41%........ #9 team defense
96-98' Pippen entire playoffs.............. 18 on 41%....... #1, #4, #9 defenses
Jordan's average margin over Pippen in a playoff series was 15.4 ppg - he averaged 15.4 more than Pippen on average in every series, so he carried the load in every series
There are only 2 great athletes among today's All-NBA selections - Giannis and Ant - but the Jordan's era had Dominique, Clyde, Barkley, MJ, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Pippen, Kemp - this is all from 1994.. So today's athletes aren't better.. Guys like Karl Malone and Derrick Coleman are also superior
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Thread Cliffs
2/4, 1/4, and 1/6 means that Lebron significantly underachieved at every stop.
He won 60 games once in 15 seasons with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD, and Luka...
This was preceded by 2 straight upset losses as OKC-level favorites in 09' and 10', which caused the "decision"
100 guys would've done better in his shoes.
Btw, it was the weakest 2/4 ever because a win over babies and teammate bailout was sandwiched in between the goat choke and record loss.. pretty much the worst an all-timer could do
And we know the reason for Lebron's futility and inability to produce a great team - just go watch him in 2009 - EVERYTHING is downhill - this imposes spot-up roles that prevents young player development, chemistry, and elite roster construction.
Otoh, go watch MJ from 1985-90' - no one moved off screens better - no one had more scoring diversity and shot-making or dynamic plays - in history
