GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Recent Cliffs
If a player wins a title with Andrew Wiggins as the 2nd option, then it was a 1-man team and 1-man carry-job.
Curry's carry-job with Wiggins validates his carry-job with Klay.
Low producers like Klay or Wiggins that underproduce 09' Mo Williams would be considered "bums" and "not enough" help for LeBallDominate's shitty chemistry to win.
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It should be easy to say "no, the Warriors weren't a 1-man team - they had Player X who was a big producer".
But no one can say this because Klay produced less than Mo, and Draymond was a low-producing 5th option that wouldn't have positive plus/minus on a losing team (system player).
So the point stands - the Warriors were a 1-man team.. And Lebron's "upset" was less impressive than Baron or Dwight's because they had 1-man teams, while Lebron had a big 3 preseason favorite and a sidekick that outplayed the sitting MVP - it's impossible to lose if Mathurin outplays SGA, and that's what Lebron had .. A sidekick outplaying the MVP is the most help possible.
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A reminder that we know Curry had a 1-man team because of this:
09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY....... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER
The Cavs' victory in 2016 was actually a much lesser accomplishment than Dwight or Baron's upsets because Baron and Dwight had 1-man teams just like the teams they were facing, while the Cavs had a big 3 preseason favorite against a 1-man team..
Curry validated his win with +2800 preseason odds in 2015 with another unexpected 1-man win in 2022..
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This is such a horrendously bad take it will earn a reply. You watched (I assume) 0 minutes of the 15/16 season. I watched every minute the Warriors played.Mason isn't as good as 2016 Draymond Green, and it's one of your worst ever take.Draymond was amazing that year, and yes Curry was the main reason, but Draymond was a Top 10 player that year (7th in the MVP)Draymond had bett
Gobert has much higher plus/minus than Jokic ever had and compares to Draymond.
And Draymond's plus/minus varies directly with team wins - he was a massive negative in 2020, which true stars like Jokic, Curry etc never are
For low producers like Draymond or Kukoc, plus-minus simply denotes good chemistry and a winning team.. These bums are huge negatives without a winning team and goats to carry them
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Everyone did better with Mo than Lebron:
09' Mo Williams............... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER... #3 team defense
11' Jason Terry................. 0.9 BPM... 0.100 WS/48... 1.9 VORP... 15.8 PER... #8 team defense
09' Mo Williams............... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' Klay Thompson......... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER
CONCLUSION;
beating a super-team with a 1-man team (11' Dirk)
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beating 1-man team with 1-man team (09' Dwight and 07' Baron)
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beating 1-man team with big 3 preseason favorite (16' Lebron/Kyrie)
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This is why so many people fell for the Lebron hoax:
Lebron is the only All-NBA selection in history with a negative plus/minus, so he simply didn't deserve the accolade and it's a clear-cut case of media fraud to inflate him.
Furthermore, it's easy to forget that AD was the 1st player in history to lift a lottery team to champion in 1 season, and he did this by leading the league in playoff scoring and dominating Jokic, while also spotting the Lakers a 2-0 lead in the Finals - this type of obvious team leader on both sides of the ball is always given the benefit of the doubt and FMVP..
So Lebron didn't deserve the 2020 FMVP, 2025 All-NBA, 2024 mid-season tourney MVP, or the Olympic MVP... Team USA had 12 All-NBA players vs 1-man teams, so they never deserved praise for nearly losing most games.. 12 All-NBA guys are supposed to dominate when facing 1 o r 2-man teams.
He doesn't know anything except bears and the point about 9-to-5'ers getting most of their opinions (in this case sports opinions) from TV.. People want to be told what to think
Meanwhile, I'm telling you, and proving that Phil Jackson didn't really know anything and just got lucky
People paying student loan interest is the #1 reason they think LeBron is the GOAT.
It's more correlated with having a mundane life of 9 to 5 - people lose the ability to think for themselves or outside the box.
Accordingly, when there's a media conspiracy (previous post) to create a fake debate, many people are primed and conditioned to go for it.
People paying student loan interest is the #1 reason they think LeBron is the GOAT.
All the false narratives are easily exposed.
"b-b-but Lebron does everything"..... Except so did Bird, Magic and Jokic.... MJ surpassed them because he was a great all-round player too, while also being a goat 2-way player and carrying the "star" category of scoring (thereby needing less stars).. Lebron also needed more passing help, rim protection, offensive rebounding help, and the most scoring help ever.. So there's something off about the idea that Lebron does everything - it's because it's impossible for 1 guy to move the ball - this requires 5 guys, although 1 ball-dominator can stop it.
"b-b-but Lebron is a floor-raiser"... Except he did the decision because he couldn't make the Finals in 09' and 10'.. The all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas needed 3 years and a 22/6/5 acquisition to make the 06' Playoffs as a favored high seed - so Lebron never had bad teams or low seeds in the playoffs until 2021-2025, which were 1st Round losses or lottery each year.. Ultimately, Lebron and Zydrunas "floor-raised" the Cavs to 45 wins until LeDrive got the all-star spacing he needed to win 66 games in 09'... Then Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win league favorite in 10'.
"b-b-but Lebron beat a 73-win team"... Except Lebron enjoyed better statistical production from Mo in 2009 than Curry got from Klay in 2016.. The 09' Cavs, 16' Warriors and 07' Mavs were simply 1-man teams that got upset in the playoffs.. They were also upset by 1-man teams (Dwight, Baron), except Lebron's big 3 preseason favorite super-team (16' Cavs).. Heading into the 2015 season, Curry's Warriors were actually considered a horrible roster with +2800 preseason odds and a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo or Hornacek.. So the results-oriented saying "73-win team" robs Curry of the 1-man carry-job that 09' Lebron or 07' Dirk got credit for (with higher-producing teammates)..
lol stuttering
Kobe worked harder than MJ.
Put prime Kobe on the 95-96 Bulls in place of Jordan and they win 75+ games.
lol Lebron can't reach goat caliber of 3-peat, 70 wins or great team/dynasty no matter who we put around him, aka objectively inferior to MJ
The goat should not produce perennial losers regardless of cast, i.e. teams that mostly lose for every material stretch.. They should be capable of producing teams that mostly win for a material stretch like 3 in 5 years.. It's unacceptable to mostly lose with every team, such as 1 for 6 with AD, or 1 for 4 with Kyrie/Love, or 2/4* with Wade/Bosh... 150 players in history could duplicate this record of perennial losing regardless of cast.
Unfortunately, it's statistical fact that Lebron's high-scoring, primary ball-handler skillset (ball-domination) entails a high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles (more assisted buckets).. Again, this is statistical fact... The spot-up roles crater everyone's assists, which creates low assist teams and assist deficits in every series loss of Lebron's playoff career.. Since inferior ball movement and assist deficits are the catalyst in every series loss for 22 years, we can conclude that it's the Achilles heel of his game that causes perennial losing (never a great team) regardless of cast (objectively inferior to MJ & others), while also producing a lottery record against Finals teams (low team ceilings).
Of course we know that excessive ball-domination can't beat top teams, so Lebron can't carry the scoring load against top teams - he never successfully carried the scoring load on the championship level and never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams).. The inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires more stars and prevents GM's from getting the right defenders/others, aka elite roster construction.. The lack of elite roster construction prevents winning with normal rosters of 1 franchise player (organic).. In addition to this inability to carry the scoring load that leads to weaker roster construction, Lebron's suboptimal skillet of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further cripples roster construction and team/player development.. Zero young players went from low producer to meaningful producer on his watch in 22 seasons.
Kobe worked harder than MJ.
Put prime Kobe on the 95-96 Bulls in place of Jordan and they win 75+ games.
Kobe's goat scoring diversity fit with all teammates, so teammates played to capacity and chemistry was maximized, which produced great teams (i.e. mostly winning over a material stretch like 3 chips in 5 years from 00-04').. Contrast this with LeBallDominate turning everyone into spot-up shooter and producing weak chemistry, thereby underachieving at every stop and never producing great teams.
Kobe 3-peated with a perennial sweep-loser like Shaq, who lost with Penny and Lebron, and barely won once with Wade.. AD was actually a bigger producer than Shaq or Duncan based on all production rate measures, yet Lebron went 1 for 6.
Kobe worked harder than MJ.
Put prime Kobe on the 95-96 Bulls in place of Jordan and they win 75+ games.
Kobe never won 70 with Shaq, and he could never tolerate Rodman's work ethic of Vegas partying and missing practices altogether... It's well-known that Jordan saved Rodman's career after he was a cancer, malcontent and loser alongside the league MVP in 95' (Robinson).. Rodman was all but out of the league before Jordan agreed to bring him on board - Jordan literally had to agree to it because it was considered a team-destroying risk.. Jordan was actually the only guy in the league or the world with the gravitas to get Rodman's respect and focus.
In addition to not being able to handle Rodman, Kobe's efficiency couldn't handle the max defensive attention of playing 4 on 5 with Rodman (and then 3 on 5 in the playoffs due to Pippen's 16 on 39% with worst-ever shooting splits).
Only Jordan won while carrying such a scoring burden and facing that kind of defensive attention.. No one in history faced Jordan's defensive attention, not even Kobe
Kobe worked harder than MJ.
Put prime Kobe on the 95-96 Bulls in place of Jordan and they win 75+ games.
Kobe couldn't win 70 with the 96' Bulls or 16' Warriors because he couldn't handle Rodman (Rodman hates Kobe and they clashed/failed in 99'), and Kobe obviously isn't Steph Curry or changing the era with threes, i.e no 73-win system.
And again, if people referred to the 07' Mavs or 09' Cavs as "67-win teams", this would imply they were stacked, thereby robbing Lebron/Dirk of having carry-jobs and 1-man teams.. Similarly, saying "73-win team" robs Curry of having a carry-jobs and 1-man team despite a +2800 roster and a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo, 07' Howard, or Hornacek.
Carry on
Btw, Lebron could never play in a lineup with a complete non-scorer like Rodman.
He needs too much scoring help for that.
Lebron certainly can't win a playoff run with Rodman getting 4/8 on 37% like he did for the 97' run.. And then Rodman wasn't even the starter in 98' (Kukoc was the starting PF).. So the PF position was a role player position for Jordan where tertiary guys like Grant, Kukoc and Rodman are sufficient... Otoh, Lebron needs franchise guys at PF like Love, Bosh and AD (the #4 PER all-time)..
Bosh was the best player in the 11' ECF to carry the Heat to the Finals, and then AD did the same in 2020.. So Lebron needs PF's that can carry him, in addition to needing "closers" like Wade and Kyrie... It's the most help that anyone needed, aka 6 opposing franchise players (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD, Luka)
Btw, Lebron could never play in a lineup with a complete non-scorer like Rodman.He needs too much scoring help for that.Lebron certainly can't win a playoff run with Rodman getting 4/8 on 37% like he did for the 97' run.. And then Rodman wasn't even the starter in 98' (Kukoc was the starting PF).. So the PF position was a role player position for Jordan where tertiary guys like
And yet u blame lebron losing with weaker defenders composing his team in Cleveland.
Go figure .
Ahh, remember how great a scorer Joel Anthony was. Shane Battier. Haslem. Delly. Mozgov. McGee. All offensive legends.
Meanwhile we are down playing Kukoc, Grant and Rodmna. All Stars and Hall of Famers. Awesome.
Ahh, remember how great a scorer Joel Anthony was. Shane Battier. Haslem. Delly. Mozgov. McGee. All offensive legends.
Most of those guys could score and/or shoot and space the floor - they're nowhere near the useless offensive player and bad scorer that Rodman was.
And which one of those guys was playing 35 MPG like Rodman or Draymond???... I'll wait
Again, Bron-ball needs too much scoring help to play "4 on 5" lineups for meaningful periods of time.. Anyone that knows anything about his career and style knows that he can't have non-scorers playing 35-40 MPG like Curry or MJ did (guys that could carry the scoring load vs top teams)
Most of those guys could score and/or shoot and space the floor - they're nowhere near the useless offensive player and bad scorer that Rodman was.And which one of those guys was playing 35 MPG like Rodman or Draymond???... I'll waitAgain, Bron-ball needs too much scoring help to play "4 on 5" lineups for meaningful periods of time.. Anyone that knows anything about his career
Most of those guys couldn't score.
Rodman was a zero on offense because that was his role. He had years were he averaged 10 points per game. He just didn't need to because MJ was a hog.
Draymond averaged 14ppg in 2016 regular season, 15.4ppg in the playoffs and 16.5ppg in the Finals. He had 32 points in Game 7 of the NBA Finals
He was better at offense than all those players I listed.
His numbers went down the following 3 years because, you know, Durant joined the team, and he didn't need to score as much.
