Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
When you cancel someone instead of debating them it makes your position look super weak. Your logic of canceling someone bc you fear what they believe in or say is the opposite of what we do in the United States.We protect free speech as unpopular as it may be and as much as we may disagree with it. I’ve noticed Israel wants to buy the internet so instead of protecting free spe
How is Israel quashing free speech by exercising their right to free speech ?
Why does this little country in the middle east have so much influence over the west? Out of everywhere on earth why did they get specific plot of land?
Israel disciplines any natives or others who get ideas about controlling petroleum.
Why does this little country in the middle east have so much influence over the west? Out of everywhere on earth why did they get specific plot of land?
Because they have their Jewish space lasers aimed at US politicians. If they don’t do Israel’s bidding they will be vaporized.
Funny you don’t already know this…
Hey, Vic, you monkeyn1gger for Allah. Im gonna make Aliyah and waste Arabs.
Go join the jihad, you filthy jew-hating schwein
Doylebrunsonfan level of propaganda…
Spoiler
Several European countries (mainly Britain, France and Germany) have been historically sympathetic to Israel because of the events of the Second World War in Europe. Meanwhile the Israelis have put a lot of lobbying effort into gaining favour and influence in Washington as part of their defence policy. The resulting informal but hogtied alliance makes more sense for the Israelis than it really does for the Americans, who get a lot of political grief out of it but no oil or military bases, just a certain amount of indirect leverage in the region -- but they already have that through their agreements with various Arab countries.
Out of everywhere on earth why did they get specific plot of land?
That's where their notional ancestors lived thousands of years ago, and part of it was assigned to them by the UN Partition Plan of 1947. Yes, it is all a bit bonkers, but, with the Nazi persecution of Jews, what once looked like a crank ideology became more accepted and the settlers descended in droves. The essential flaw is that Zionism was a late-nineteenth-century ethno-nationalist and imperialist conceit, which completely discounted, and still discounts, the rights of the Arabs who were already living there and had been for centuries. This problem, and Israel's territorial ambition to expand itself further into Arab lands (as Moshe Dayan said, 'Israel will always need new enemies, because she will always need new land'), mean that 'peace with security', which the Israelis claim they want, isn't really what they want at all and, on the whole, isn't likely to happen soon.
Several European countries (mainly Britain, France and Germany) have been historically sympathetic to Israel because of the events of the Second World War in Europe. Meanwhile the Israelis have put a lot of lobbying effort into gaining favour and influence in Washington as part of their defence policy. The resulting informal but hogtied alliance makes more sense for the Israeli
Israel didn't exist in WW2. Not getting anything in return isn't a reason for undying support.
Where did the UN get the authority to take whatever piece of land it sees fit? How would you even go about proving there's any connection to that land after thousands of years exactly?
Israel didn't exist in WW2. Not getting anything in return isn't a reason for undying support.
Where did the UN get the authority to take whatever piece of land it sees fit? How would you even go about proving there's any connection to that land after thousands of years exactly?
You could just read into the history of the region but I guess that’s way too much to expect. 57 on red provided a very biased and one sided interpretation of the establishment of Israel.
Regardless, if you think Israel is going to disappear because of a technicality in its creation, you’re going to be disappointed. It’s here now and is much more tangible than any idea of a Palestinian state. Time to accept that and face reality.
Jews were legally purchasing land and moving to what is now Israel before WW2 started. The UN partition plan was probably ill advised but the Arabs decided to respond with war, which they lost despite all the odds being in their favor. The decedents of the present day Palestinians fled their homes while the Jews stood and fought, expecting the Jews to be promptly exterminated after which they could return to their homes free of the Jew. Unfortunately for them the Jews unexpectedly won the war.
At that point no one really cared what happened to the Jews in Israel and if the Arabs weren’t so incompetent at warfare we probably wouldn’t be having these conversations today.
Jews were legally purchasing land and moving to what is now Israel before WW2 started. The UN partition plan was probably ill advised but the Arabs decided to respond with war, which they lost despite all the odds being in their favor. The decedents of the present day Palestinians fled their homes while the Jews stood and fought, expecting the Jews to be promptly exterminated
And these people they bought the land from. How do you think they originally came to acquire it? Do you think a lot of them were just locals selling their generational family land or people who never lived in Palestine and were doing well in the ottoman empire?
Pretty hard for a bunch of poor farmers to compete with comparatively monied Europeans rocking up to their shores.
But no argument to the end of your statement. The land was fought for and conquered, wasn't just some peaceful refugees looking to get along with everyone and given the history where they were coming from it's at the least understandable.
Israel didn't yet exist but the Balfour declaration in 1917 was a key zionist event
And these people they bought the land from. How do you think they originally came to acquire it? Do you think a lot of them were just locals selling their generational family land or people who never lived in Palestine and were doing well in the ottoman empire?Pretty hard for a bunch of poor farmers to compete with comparatively monied Europeans rocking up to their shores. But
Some of the land was ultimately obtained by wronging the Palestinians who lived there, just as many Jews lost their homes in Arab and European parts of the world. Sadly this is the nature of human history. The difference is no other group of people in history have been allowed to transfer refugee status from generation to generation. Regardless, the lions share of the blame rests with the Arab states for rejecting the UN partition plan and starting the 1948 war which ultimately displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and allowed the Zionist farmers to conquer more territory in a defensive war.
And these people they bought the land from. How do you think they originally came to acquire it? Do you think a lot of them were just locals selling their generational family land or people who never lived in Palestine and were doing well in the ottoman empire?Pretty hard for a bunch of poor farmers to compete with comparatively monied Europeans rocking up to their shores. But
I think it is a misnomer to view "Israel" as we do today. In the 1800s when the large land purchases were made from Ottoman landowners it was pretty much empty. It was inhospitable swamps and deserts with very few people, Jews or Arabs, living on them.
Ironically, it was Jewish Zionists buying up large tracts of empty land, and bringing industrialization and development to the region, that facilitated a large influx of (mostly Arab) immigration to the region.
There was very little "conquering" going on prior 1948. Jews bought mostly empty, undeveloped land and then developed it. Maybe some substinance shepherds and framers were kicked off, but no more so than any other part of the world going through development. You name me a country that went through rapid development in the 1800s-1900s; and I guarantee there were instances where peasants were forced off land they were living on that was technically owned by someone else, to make way for development.
In some cases, such as Russia and China, literally millions of farmers were forcibly removed. Zionism and the development of Israel wasn't anything special. Just the narrative that has been constructed around it. We have developed this collective amnesia about how the entire world worked in the 19th-20th centuries, and constructed this fantasy that Israel was some pernicious outlier.
Here is a map of Europe in 1850. As you an see, there are very little national "ethnostates". Middle East and Southeast Asia had no ethnonation states all at this point. Then in 100 years basically the whole world went through a "romantic nationalist" phase, and the ethno nation states that are mostly still around today, were formed.
And in pretty much EVERY instance there was large population transfers, with variable amounts of coercion and violence. Even places we viewed as non diverse 20th century ethnostates (such as Germany and Poland) involved population transfers to get to this point. And places like Turkey, Russia and India/Pakistan millions of people were displaced, with tremendous violence.
Really the only thing special about "Palestine" is that unlike everyone else in the world the people were told you dont have to just accept being displaced. You can live as refugees forever lobbying to reclaim the land. Where everyone else just moved on with their lives. And I tell you, so far the deal they were given has not worked out for Palestinians. Although unfortunately (especially for them) they have been radicalized and conditioned to believe if they hold out long enough eventually Israel will be conquered.
I think it is a misnomer to view "Israel" as we do today. In the 1800s when the large land purchases were made it was pretty much empty. It was inhospitable swamps and deserts with very few people, Jews or Arabs, living on them.Ironically, it was Jewish Zionists buying up large tracts of empty land, and bringing industrialization and development to the region, that facilitate
How many Jews and Arabs people lived there, in your opinion? From 1800-1900
