GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
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All-time Playoff PPG
Michael Jordan............ 33.4
Luka Dončić................. 30.9
Allen Iverson............... 29.7
Kevin Durant................ 29.3
Jerry West..................... 29.1
Elgin Baylor................... 27.0
LeBron James............... 28.4
Rick Barry...................... 26.3
Donovan Mitchell......... 28.1
Hakeem Olajuwon....... 25.9
MJ is 3-5 ppg better than all the best scorers in history..
Most people don't understand what a massive gap that is.. He was on a completely different level.
Remember that MJ became a 1st time point guard for a 25 game stint in 1989 - everyone said he was alteady a better PG than Magic, Isiah and Stockton after just a few games at the new position, despite being a 1st time PG at 26 years old.. That's goat talent for the game of basketball - then he turned into Steph Curry during the 92' Finals and always shot threes well when he had volume - there's simply nothing he couldn't do on the basketball court...
Who was better going downhill than "Air" Jordan, and yet he's also the goat off-ball player.. He moved quick-as-a-cat off screens, while also being the goat 2-point jumpshooter (goat scorer) and goat wing post player... And a DPOY defender.. aka the GOAT
Wemby will replace MJ in the GOAT debate. Years from now it will be a LeBron vs Wemby discussion.
Wemby will replace MJ in the GOAT debate. Years from now it will be a LeBron vs Wemby discussion.
Lebron was never considered #1 all-time by the majority - so he never got there/failed at becoming goat.. And he will only decline in the rankings going forward.
Wemby has a chance, but he needs to improve his scoring ability - the goat must have a case as the best scorer ever... That's why Jordan, Kobe, Curry and Bird are top 5 all-time players by virtue of being the goat scorers of the modern era/offensive basketball, aka post 1980 (3-pointer basketball)...
^^^ Scouting report that produced 2011 upset:
* Lebron shoots 20% outside of 15 feet, so pack the paint
* Lebron didn't like to post up, so he won't post up repeatedly, and therefore can be defended by shorter guys.. This allowed the Mavs to use Shawn Marion on Wade, who was going off.
Show me where opponents of MJ were like "yeah, we exploited weaknesses and destroyed him like this, etc"... That's because MJ had no weaknesses - his opponents said he was god after beating him
History shows that the 13' Finals were another 2011-style choke where the "pack the paint" strategy worked again until Ray Allen gave Lebron a 2nd chance.
Specifically, Lebron averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games to get a 1-2 deficit, while his 23 on 43% was insufficient through 6 games, thereby needing the Allen miracle.
Overall, the Heat didn't win with Lebron on the floor in the 13' Finals (0 plus-minus and negative net rating for Lebron)... Imagine being crowned the series MVP, yet your team didn't even win when you were on the floor.. It's just another example of Lebron being a fraud..
Ultimately, he wasn't dominant by only averaging 25 and needing an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, aka Lebron never defeated max defensive attention (never successfully carried the scoring load on the championship level).
Wemby is competing against a league of ball-dominators, so once he starts winning, he will win every year due to superior talent AND superior brand of ball.. It's an unbeatable combo that won Jordan 6 chips, despite several years off in his prime...
But it's part and parcel - Wemby's skillset and no weaknesses allows the best brands of ball (just like Jordan), whereas a ball-dominator like Luka, Lebron, or Harden is limited to a weaker brand and less winning... History shows this stark contrast between the greatest winners and brands of ball (non-ball-dominators), compared to the lesser-winning brands that needed more help (ball-dominators).
Fidstar provided an answer, but we need to pump the brakes on Wemby getting there this season... I'm almost ready to reverse my "Spurs in 5" pre-series prediction based on the media coverage after Game 1 alone.
First of all, the media used this game by Wemby to say that it was a "coming out party" that reminded them of Lebron's 48-point game in 2007.. They claim this 1 game made Lebron the best player in the league, and now Wemby has done the same... However, how can the league's best player play worse than anyone ever has???... That's what Lebron did in those Finals when he became the 1st player ever to shoot 35% with 6 TO's for a series.. This worst-ever chucking and ball control wasn't a one-off because it was repeated in the 08' ECSF and the biggest reason the Cavs lost in 7 games, aka the Cavs went 7 in spite of Lebron playing worse than anyone ever has.
Given his worst-ever caliber against the 07' Spurs and 08' Celtics, it's clear that Lebron wasn't competitive against Finals comp at that time... Accordingly, how could he have been the best player in the league???... Kobe dominated those same Spurs and Celtics in the 08' Playoffs... Infact, given Lebron's worst-ever performances in 07' and 08', along with goat meltdowns in 10' and 11', we can conclude that Lebron wasn't the best player until 2012.. He wasn't even the 1st option on his own team in the 11' Playoffs.
All of this means that the media is wrong to crown Wemby so quickly after 1 game... Heck, Lebron actually wet the bed in the very next game when he was carried by Boobie Gibson in Game 6, and this preceded his worst-ever performance in the Finals.
You have yet to provide an example of someone in the 90's saying the Bulls were loaded, while I provided many examples of players, coaches, fans and media saying the Bulls were a 1-man team..
It's just 1 example of many where you were beat convincingly on an issue itt.
Ultimately, the main reason that Jordan is considered goat is because the 6x Bulls are commonly viewed as a 1-man team.. All the stats and eye test confirm this.
The point is that the last guy they used 1 game to say he's the best player in the league ended up not winning for another 6 years..
Specifically, after Lebron scored 48 in Game 5 of the 07' ECF, he wet the bed in the very next game and then played worse than anyone ever has in the very next series, and also the following year's 2nd Round, and then he had 3 straight upset losses after that before finally winning in 2012 (after teaming up with the top 3 PER's in the league).
So it's a farce to say someone is the best in the league based on 1 game, even if it's probably true for Wemby (it obviously wasn't for Lebron)...
Even for MJ, they said that he wasn't a winner, and that scoring champs can't win, and that he didn't make teammates better like Magic/Bird... So he wasn't really considered the league's best player in the 80's.
Good question. I'd say 3.5.
Winning chips is hard. OKC is really really good.
Not everyone can have a loaded team like MJ in a water-downed league with a commissioner that rigs the game for him to win.
This is way low imo. I hope i don't jinx Wemby and the Spurs but considering Wemby's age, his defense (literally makes great offensive teams look like weak offensive teams. Reducing teams to just chuck up 3's and hope for the best. As they can't go to the rim, even okc), the great young talent of the rest of the Spurs, i see a dynasty brewing.
Knock on wood he stays healthy. But the number is at least 4.5. I wanna say higher because if we're basing it on teams and the way they are constructed right now only okc has a chance to beat them every year for the next 15 years it feels. And they will be favorites to beat okc every year going forward. What makes okc great is their defense, more specifically their size, and SGA getting to the rim. But now what they do with their size and rim protection is what Wemby does to them and the rest of the league. And takes away SGA's superpower which is the ability to get to the rim so easily.
Wemby is a game changer. And he's not in his prime yet. Imagine if he gets in the gym this offseason due to being tired of the physicality the league is using on him to try and tear down the giant. Like Jordan did after the bad boy pistons did it to him. And puts on some weight, refines his offensive moves, and starts hitting the 3 more consistently.
It's only 4.5 because of the chance that other teams form better teams. Like if Jokic teamed with Cade Cunningham and Giannis they could mess up the Spurs dynasty. But Spurs could also add to their team. And of course barring injury. I think he's gonna get at least 6 titles, especially if they win this year. It just feels like it's coming and we've just gotten a little taste of what's gonna happen for the next at least 15 years. Looks like Wemby might have the Jordan and Kobe mentality of refusing to be denied, refusing to lose.
If Chet Holmgren does the same of putting on some weight and getting in the gym could cost Wemby some titles. Holmgren feels like he's not in his prime yet either. He's not Wemby, but he's the smaller version of Wemby. If he refines his skills and with SGA they could mess with the Spurs dynasty some as well.
bros arguing who the goat is for 15 years then some 7'5 mutant comes along and makes it all a waste of time
brutal out here
It's pretty insane people think 4.5 is low.
Well Wemby is pretty insane great. Look at it like this. He's got a good chance to win 1 this year already. So he'd need 4 more in the next however long he plays. Let's say he plays until he's 40. So he'd need 4 more titles in 18 years. And only okc in their way. Let's say they don't dominate okc as bad as they have this year. Let's say they split beating each other for the next 18 years. Which i think Wemby would do way better than split but for argument sake let's say they split. That would mean 9 titles. Of course you gotta beat the east too but i don't see anyone that can compete right now there. But let's say they lose twice to the east. That would be 7 titles. That's why i see 4.5 low.
And again i think they beat okc more than 9 times in the next 18 years. Prolly more like 12 to okc's 6. Or 13 to okc's 5. They might never lose to them lol. Okc better beat them this year cause it's gonna get ugly the next 18 years dealing with Wemby and those young talents. Knock on wood he has good health. Of course if Holmgren ups his game to superstar level that would change things alot. Then maybe splitting with okc for the next 18 years more likely. Maybe een Okc winning slightly more in the 18 years. But while i think Holmgren improves he won't improve enough to be on Wemby's level. So not enough to stop Wemby's domination and titles.
The crazy part he doesn't even have a great robin to play with yet. Castle may be that guy. But he's not established to be an all time great robin yet. Actually Fox might be Robin too. Fox has always had a sweet game, underrated. But imagine if other superstars decided to join forces with Wemby? Jokic and Wemby together? Cade Cunningham and Wemby? It would be like will he get 9 titles or more?
No one will ever catch MJ or match his dominance and the reason is scoring.
Wemby can't score and is bad at scoring compared to MJ.. He actually looks like a beginner but he's 7'5" so it's good enough to work... But his actual scoring ability compared to MJ??? A joke.
But carry on futily searching for someone to match a guy that won 6 titles as a 1-man statistical distribution (1-man team)... Lol, you'll never find someone that won 6 titles at 30 ppg while all teammates are at least 10 ppg behind.. Some guys win 1 or 2 titles this way, but only MJ has 6 titles while defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load).
Wemby has at least 3 teammates that are better scorers than Pippen and frequently outscore Wemby in a series, so his offensive dominance is nothing compared to MJ.. Castle led them in scoring vs Minnesota, smh, so Wemby is carried offensively compared to Jordan - EVERYONE IS...
Ultimately, everyone in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led every SERIES of his career, and by a margin of 10-30 ppg .. Who will ever match this level of offensive carrying??... No one, because MJ was the perfect basketball specimen and optimal for a 94-foot court with 10-foot rims.. Plus his skillset and brand of ball was perfect (off-ball, goat jumpshooting, goat ball movement, goat footwork fundamentals = goat chemistry, goat teamwork and team fluidity).
Actually would be 8 titles if they won this year. Would have 1 already. Then split with okc for the next 18 years for chance at 9 more titles going to the finals. Then losing twice to the east in 9 more finals appearances would be 7 titles, plus the 1 this year, would be 8. I doubt the east beats him twice though. The stronger teams are in the west. Nobody in the east compares to Spurs and Okc. So Okc and Jokic, if they gave him some big help like Cade Cunningham and another top player, would have a chance to beat Wemby. But obviously Jokic won't get Cade Cunningham so it's only okc. I wonder what it would look like if Giannis went to join Jokic. That would fix the nuggets defensive issues protecting the rim. I know they're both bigs but great players figure put how to play together.
There is only one other player to change the game based on their physical ability being better than anyone who has ever played. That was Jordan. Then Jordan added in a refuse to lose mindset, and refining his skills even more, and developing a great basketball iq made him the goat. Now we have to see if Wemby can add to his game like Jordan did and compete for the goat.
Actually would be 8 titles if they won this year. Would have 1 already. Then split with okc for the next 18 years for chance at 9 more titles going to the finals. Then losing twice to the east in 9 more finals appearances would be 7 titles, plus the 1 this year, would be 8. I doubt the east beats him twice though. The stronger teams are in the west. Nobody in the east compares
BASKET-ball is about putting the ball in the BASKET.
Accordingly, the goat must have a case as the best at putting the ball in the basket (goat scorer).
This is why I'm not sure Wemby is the goat... I'm not sure he can consistently score like he did in Game 1, so his titles will have to be team affairs where he's often outscored by teammates.. This already happened against Minnesota, and this drastically lower caliber of offensive dominance can't ever catch MJ.
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"Should Steph Curry have won FMVP?":
BASKET-ball is about putting the ball in the BASKET.Accordingly, the goat must have a case as the best at putting the ball in the basket (goat scorer).This is why I'm not sure Wemby is the goat... I'm not sure he can consistently score like he did in Game 1, so his titles will have to be team affairs where he's often outscored by teammates.. This already happened against Minnes
Well of course if we're talking about putting the ball in the basket it's Jordan always. But because Wemby is such a dominant defensive player causing teams to be scared to even attempt to go to the basket makes it interesting. Of course Wemby isn't close to jordan on the offensive side yet, and probably never will be that good, as maybe that's impossible. But if he refines his post up moves, and starts making his 3's at a high percentage, his offense might be get close enough added in with his best defense of all time he could have an argument someday. He'd still need to win at least 6 titles maybe 7 to have any argument at goat though. But also we're talking "ifs". If whether he refines his post up moves and makes higher percentage 3's. And of course if he wins 7 titles. Just he has the most promising chance/future to ever possibly beat jordan out for goat.
Wemby is already a more efficient scorer than Jordan for his entire career lol
Bad at scoring though
It's about making sure your team puts the ball in the basket. It's a team sport. It's not tennis.
Also about stopping the other team putting the ball in the basket.
MJ had the goat team offenses (highest margin above league average).
And prior to the 3-point era (2016 onwards), the Bulls had the highest ortg's ever (along with the 80's Lakers).
Furthermore, since Jordan had the least scoring help, the reason for the goat team offense was Jordan himself.. Specifically, he carried the biggest scoring burden ever, while his skillset was fundamentally-sound (off-ball) - this allowed the team to run a superior brand of ball and have everyone play to capacity.. Ultimately, his goat scoring diversity fit with everyone and allowed the best strategies/brands of ball.
Otoh, if he was a ball-dominator like Luka or Lebron, then he wouldn't be able to run a Spurs or Warriors-like ball movement (dynasty-ball), and therefore wouldn't win nearly as much.. His teammates wouldn't develop either, since they would become spot-up shooters, so the Bulls would never have developed.. Fortunately, Jordan was basically the perfect basketball player, so none of this happened... He played off-ball and had goat scoring diversity to fit with everyone and allow the best strategies/brands.. That's why he developed teammates, goat chemistry and the goat teams (6 for 6).
^^^ Only if he's carried on offense compared to Jordan, because he can't win 6 the way Jordan did (scoring far more than all teammates, all the time).
Ultimately, since Wemby frequently has a bunch of teammates outscoring him, he can't compare to MJ's stature and domination.
We saw it tonight - Wemby is a beginner scorer compared to MJ, and therefore frequently needs teammates to carry the scoring load... His movements scoring-wise are beginner-looking compared to MJ... It's obviously still impressive because he's 7'5", but his scoring ability is nothing compared to the GOAT, and he'll be offensively carried to his chips by comparison.
you do realize that defense is half the game, and he impacts on that end like no other.
