Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
whoo boy. a successor: https://liberationday.substack.com/p/the... cant be antisemitic tho
Itβs conceptually false. Zionism and Judaism are just two different concepts so they just arenβt the same. People like to use clumsy rhetoric though so maybe they mean βto be a Jew you have to be a Zionistβ.
Iβm curious if you actually like this piece victor? Because I scarcely see how you could with ridiculous passages like this:
So what was Judaism, then? Easy, a religion. Practiced in different ways by different people across many places. There were a set of rites, practices, and beliefs that made one a Jew, same as in any other religion. Today, thatβs no longer the case. Religiosity is completely untethered from Jewish identity. There are many Jewish atheists, and even Jews of other faiths. What makes one a Christian is a belief in Trinitarianism. What makes one a Muslim is summed up pretty handily in the shahada. No central tenet unites Jews. Save for one.
I dunno man, seems correct. I never hear people call themselves a secular Catholic or secular Sunni. But secular Jew is claimed all over the place.
Jewish isn't exclusively a religion, and hasn't been for a very long time, though paradoxically someone can convert to Judaism and call themselves Jewish. As described by a Jewish friend of mine, it's an identity that's bound up in centuries of persecution.
I think thats way too high of an estimate. regardless, they have no power in the Jewish community and do nothing to combat Zionism. Id urge you to read the article.
One reason that many, in the post-2023 moment, still brandish the myth of the silent plurality of anti-Zionist Jews is because of the public changes that the Jewish community has undergone. Plenty of media has been devoted to the many polls that have come out regarding shifts in non-Israeli Jewish sentiments. The most recent high-profile survey (that’s been covered ad nauseam) comes from early this year, conducted by the Jewish Federations of North America. In the Time of Israel, it’s findings are touted as, “Even most Israel-supporting US Jews don’t identify as ‘Zionists,’ JFNA survey finds.” Immediately, there’s a contradiction. How can someone not be a Zionist, but still support Israel? A read through the actual study will tell you that, in fact, the only noticeable change in the Jewish community has been an increased understanding that the label of “Zionist” is bad for online dating and making new friends. Despite only a third of American Jews calling themselves Zionists, 88% still “support Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish and Democratic state.” That overlaps almost entirely with the 87% who believe that “Israel has valid reasons for fighting Hamas.”
Only 7% of respondents in the survey oppose Israel existing as a Jewish state. This lines up almost exactly with the statistic stating that “94% of Jews agree [that] the way Hamas carried out its 10/7 attack was unacceptable,” meaning 6% believe Hamas was justified. These numbers further correlate with the statistic showing that only 7% actually identify themselves as explicitly “Anti-Zionist,” and also with the statistic that gives us 6% “[indicating] that following October 7th they avoided Jewish institutions more.” We can pretty easily surmise that these are the same people.
6 to 7 percent. Out of all American Jews. I’ll inform those who are unaware that American Jews account for at least 40% of the world’s Jewish population, and 75% of the non-Israeli Jewish population (these numbers come from before Oct. 7, and are likely to be higher now). When one adds France, Canada, the United Kingdom, and Argentina (all countries with strikingly similar polling) to the US’s numbers, this accounts for just shy of 90% of the total non-Israeli Jewish population.
Now, if you don’t at least see a problem with that, I don’t know what to tell you. What I see, though, are further questions. How many among those 6 to 7 percent are “Holy Land” types themselves? How many do not believe in unilateral Palestinian land-back, but instead some tepid, “power-sharing” arrangement that pretends at democracy? How many, in their heart of hearts, believe truly in the total dismantling of the Israel state and the full sovereignty of Palestinians over the land of Palestine? For that, I’ll admit I don’t have the polling data. However, my gut and my anecdotal experience tell me that it’s at least not most of them.
Yet, whether it is every single one of that meager percentage, or next to none, it would not matter. This is because Judaism is not merely a group of people. The collective body of Jews are, of course, but the religion itself is by definition institutional. That “ancient, sacred religion” you’re defending is pretty much a collection of nonprofits. You might think I’m being glib, but I’m really not. The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, the Union for Reform Judaism, and the Orthodox Union are all literally 501(c)(3)s. Ditto every Jewish organization within the United States, save for those that are actually for-profit, of which there are many.
Don’t get me wrong here, this is typical of American religious institutions. However, what makes Judaism unique is that each of those large, interconnected umbrella organizations has an affiliated equivalent within all other countries with major Jewish populations. Put together, these groups operate as complex machines that funnel money and support to Israel. Synagogues within the Conservative movement, for example, are explicitly Zionist. As someone who grew up in a half-dozen Conservative Jewish communities, I can tell you that my Jewish communal experience was incredibly Israel focused. Conservative synagogues not only have prayers for the State of Israel and the IDF, they have special services, memorials, and even three holidays dedicated to Israel. Holidays that are older are retroactively inflected with a shiny new Zionist lens. At the end of almost every Shabbat service, the president of the synagogue will typically take the stage to try and raise money for Israeli groups, if not the IDF itself. Any Conservative synagogue you walk into is going to be full of Israeli flags, posters advertising Israel programming or Israeli charities, and so much more. To add to it all, most Conservative communities organize annual (if not more frequent) trips to occupied Palestine. All of this is also true of Modern Orthodox and Reform congregations.
It isn’t just the synagogues, either. Jewish summer camps, day schools, men’s clubs, women’s associations, and youth groups are all the same. In most egalitarian, non-denominational Jewish day schools, K-12 students will take “Judaic Studies” courses that center Israel, and high school students take “Israel Advocacy” classes in order to indoctrinate them further. These schools will almost always additionally take their students on trips to Palestine, usually when they are in high school (this separate from the many ‘Israeli trip’ programs). That is what it means to be a Jewish institution.
I know, you’ve heard online about anti-Zionist rabbis and institutions. Allow me to correct the record; the anti-Zionist rabbis you’ve heard of are an infinitesimal group. “Rabbi” is not a mystical title, it requires a degree from an accredited institution, all of which fall under the umbrella of the aforementioned Zionist organizations. As part of their training, rabbinical students typically have to go and spend at least one year in occupied Palestine. For the most part, those people you follow on Twitter are ordained rabbis who have broken with the Jewish community, often having undergone cherem (Jewish excommunication) for being vocally pro-Palestine, and now no longer serve in a clerical capacity. Most are also two-staters. Those “anti-Zionist” synagogues? Well, to officially be a synagogue, you — again — must be part of one of the broader organizations. To call yourself a “community” or a “congregation” though, you can be a handful of people who meet up to pray. That’s precisely what the ones you’ve heard of are.
Am I in any way saying that there is no world in which someone could come along, call themselves a Jew, and be truly anti-Zionist? No, I am not. However, in order to actually be anti-Zionist, that person would in fact need to either create a wholly new religion, or revive a previous incarnation of Judaism. That would require totally detaching from all institutions and individuals who now identify as Jewish. This has not happened to any meaningful degree. As it stands, Judaism is Zionism.
I dunno man, seems correct. I never hear people call themselves a secular Catholic or secular Sunni. But secular Jew is claimed all over the place.
Your boy Hasan calls himself a cultural Muslim, people call themselves cultural Christians, including famous atheist Richard Dawkins.
But regardless even if that was true, itβs still a fallacious passage. Religion isnβt anthropologically defined as having some central tenet that all people who ascribe to a religion must follow.
Or hey what about all the Eastern religions that donβt require some strict adherence or even a belief in God like certain sects of Buddhism?
Or what about liberal Christians that believe you can be atheist/agnostic and still a Christian?
Itβs actually a very anthropologically/study of religion illiterate and a pretty colonial viewpoint if anything, ironically. But it does fit nicely into an Islamic/Christian fundamentalist and Orthodox Judaism view of religion so thatβs nice if youβre that type of religious zealot.
I dunno man, seems correct. I never hear people call themselves a secular Catholic or secular Sunni. But secular Jew is claimed all over the place.
The vast majority of the (self-identifying) Catholic population in the Netherlands is now largely irreligious in practice. Research among Catholics in the Netherlands in 2007 shows that even among religious Dutch Catholics only 27% can be regarded as theist, 55% as ietsist, 17% as agnostic and 1% as atheist.[34]
It’s actually a very anthropologically/study of religion illiterate and a pretty colonial viewpoint if anything, ironically. But it does fit nicely into an Islamic/Christian fundamentalist and Orthodox Judaism view of religion so that’s nice if you’re that type of religious zealot
I think you may have misread what he said.
What makes one a Christian is a belief in Trinitarianism. What makes one a Muslim is summed up pretty handily in the shahada. No central tenet unites Jews. Save for one.
What part do you think I’m misreading? You guys love to throw out the misreading without backing it up with quotes and exegesis from the article.
And just so we’re clear I’m not saying they are a religious zealot. I’m saying their view is consistent with that of a fundamentalist who believes that to be x religion means you have to agree with some specific set of propositions.
Tone deaf.
American Zionists are having conniptions about the plummeting support for Israel among the young.
Jews are always prominent organizers of protests against Israel -- groups like Jewish Voice for Peace.
Then there's the long list of prominent, outspoken Jews who oppose Zionism.
Maybe the figure is only 7%, but that's a lot of people. Are that many Americans hard left?
Tone deaf.
American Zionists are having conniptions about the plummeting support for Israel among the young.
Jews are always prominent organizers of protests against Israel -- groups like Jewish Voice for Peace.
Then there's the long list of prominent, outspoken Jews who oppose Zionism.
Maybe the figure is only 7%, but that's a lot of people. Are that many Americans hard left?
You missed the part of the article he posted where they mocked Jewish Voices for Peace. Iβm sure he shares the same sentiment.
Tone deaf.
American Zionists are having conniptions about the plummeting support for Israel among the young.
Jews are always prominent organizers of protests against Israel -- groups like Jewish Voice for Peace.
Then there's the long list of prominent, outspoken Jews who oppose Zionism.
Maybe the figure is only 7%, but that's a lot of people. Are that many Americans hard left?
JVP just registered to be a donor for the Dems. the party that funded and managed the current acceleration of genocide.

as someone on twitter said recently, "What about Jewish Voice for GTFO of Palestine?"
I think you are being too purist. Electoral politics is sloppy and full of compromises. If a candidate opposes arming Israel, they should be supported.
The JVP reputation on the street is known for opposing colonialism. That's what members say at demonstrations. That's to be encouraged, not snubbed.
if JVP wanted to be anticolonial, then they could take that 11m in profit they made during the course of the recent genocide and fund settlers going home. or send it directly to families in Gaza. instead they are lining their own pockets and propping up Zionist Democrats.
They would deconvert from Judaism and renounce the religion as the Great Satan
but then they would not be able to grift off a genocide committed in the name of Judaism by Jews and backed by almost all Jewish institutions. like, Former Jews for Peace just doesnt have the same ring to it.
#NotAllJews




