Introduction to Small Stakes No-Limit Hold ’em: Help Them Give You Their Money
Hi Everyone:
Here's part of the Introduction to or upcoming book Small Stakes No-Limit Hold ’em: Help Them Give You Their Money. We expect to have the printed book up on Amazon in less than a month:
Introduction
Let’s start this book off with a few examples. These are just a few of the many types of hands which for the live small stakes games, usually $2-$5 or less, that we play differently from the way almost all other players in these games will play them, and is also different from much of the standard advice that is out there. So why do we do this?
The answer is simple. Against poor playing opponents, the best strategy for maximizing your win rate is to exploit these players as much as possible, sometimes with plays that look extreme. Especially to an “expert” player who often relies on Game Theory Optimal (GTO) to model his strategy.
Now, we understand that those who usually play GTO will, when appropriate, exploit their opponents. They do so when they see an opponent playing very badly which will make them make changes to their standard strategy. But they usually do this only in very obvious cases.
But that’s not the way we play these small stakes games. In these games, assuming the game is eight or nine-handed, it’s common to be against four ot more terrible players, and even most of the remaining players, who are usually semi-competent, will still make some significant errors, especially late in the hand when the big bets are in play.
If you were to go into a higher stakes (live) game, usually $5-$10 and up, where there are many strong players, and do many of the things that we’ll be recommending, your results will probably be disappointing. But if you stick to a game like $1-$3 no-limit hold ’em where the maximum buy-in is usually 100 to 200 big blinds, and follow the advice that is contained in this book, we suspect that you’ll be quite surprised and pleased with your results.
Our approach is not looking to make lots of great plays where you may steal a pot or knock a player out who, if he had stayed in, might have beaten you on a later street. We’re also not interested in constantly balancing our strategy and putting our opponent(s) at an “indifference point.” The experts can worry about that stuff, and if that’s your approach, play the higher stakes or perhaps limit hold ’em where recognizing small edges is highly important. But if you simply want to let your opponents give you their money, we’ll show you how to do it.
A Few Examples
(Again, these examples show you only a small number of the many ideas we will soon tell you about.) To see what we’re talking about, here are five examples. Notice that in every one of these hands, we’re playing differently, and sometimes very differently, from the way most poker instructors, coaches, book authors, poker video content producers, etc., will tell you how to play. It's true that, in general, their advice may be reasonably good, especially against tougher players than those we’ll be addressing. But it won’t be well targeted for these small stakes games. And if you’re playing live, these are the vast majority of games that are spread in our public cardrooms.
Example No. 1: Here’s a hand that David played in a Las Vegas $1-$3 game. It’s an extreme example, but we want to start with it to show how different many of the strategies in this book are and to give you an idea of how different, in some situations, our approach to maximizing your expectation is from the typical player, and this includes most of those who are currently having some success in live $1-$2, $1-$3, $2-$5, and similar no-limit hold ’em games.
In a $1-$3 no-limit game, David was dealt the
K♦ K♣
two positions to the right of the button. The first four players limped in and David only called. The next two players folded, the small blind called, and the big blind checked.
The flop came the
J♠ 9♥ 7♠
The under-the-gun player bet, two players called, and then David threw his pair of kings in the muck.
Virtually no one else, at the time of this writing, would play a pair of kings in late position in a multiway pot this way. They would have made a substantial raise before the flop, and on the flop they would have certainly played their hand.
But let’s notice something obvious. If one of the last two positions or one of the blinds would have raised, when the action got back to David, he would have the option to make a big reraise, and if there were also a couple of callers, he would almost always be a large favorite to win a big pot assuming he got at least one caller.
As for his fold on the flop, given the way the hand was played, the reason for David’s fold is a little more complex, and that will be explained in detail later in this book. He would not have folded if the flop would have come something like the
J♠ 7♥ 2:♣
So, this example should give you an idea of what this book is about. To be specific, it’s playing your hands in the way that will exploit the weak players to the maximum. And as you can see from this example, some of the ways to do this aren't the ways that are generally advocated by the current crop of poker instructors and poker coaches as well as some of whom have been around. But there are ways, which will allow you to win the maximum at a reasonable risk that these small live stakes games have to offer.
Example No. 2: This hand was played by David. Under-the-Gun in a $1-$3 game at a full table, David held the
A♠ K♠
Instead of raising first in as most poker instructors would recommend, he limped in for $3 and got three callers behind him plus the big blind. So, after the rake, there was $15 in the pot.
The flop came the
K♣ 9♥ 4♣
and with top pair, top kicker, David bet $15 and got one caller. The pot (after the rake) is now $42.
David saw that his lone opponent only had $80 left. And when a T♦ came on the turn, David bet $80 and was called by his opponent who was now all-in. Unfortunately, a club came on the river and this player showed the
6♣ 2♣
for a flush which won the pot.
Now some of you might say that if David had raised before the flop, as most players would, he would have won the pot. But notice that he got his opponent to call a large bet (for this game) getting 1.5-to-1 odds when he needed to make a 4-to-1 shot. So, theoretically, David won much more playing the hand this way than he would have won playing the hand in a conventional manner. And over time, these theoretical wins do turn into real money.
Example No. 3: Here’s a hand that Mason played. A timid early position player limped in, and Mason had concluded that this player absolutely never bluffed. Everyone folded to Mason who called with the 7♥7♦ on the button. The small blind folded and the big blind checked.
Three random cards, including one overcard to the sevens, flopped. The big blind checked, the timid player bet a modest amount, and Mason folded.
Example No. 4: Here’s another hand that Mason played. In a $1-$3 game, an overly loose-aggressive player, two positions to the right of the button, raised to $10. The button called and Mason, who held the
A♠ K♠
in the big blind called. Notice that the standard play would be to make a big reraise.
The flop came the
J♥ 6♦ 3♠
Mason checked, the loose-aggressive player bet $15, the button folded, and Mason called with his ace-king and three-flush. The turn was the 6♠ giving Mason a four-flush. Mason checked, the loose aggressive player bet $25, and Mason called.
The river was the A♣. Mason checked, the loose-aggressive player bet $50 and Mason called with his (now) aces-up and king kicker. The loose aggressive player then turned over the
A♦ 2♥
Notice that he had bet a total of $100 on all four streets and never had the best hand.
Example No. 5: And for our final example, here’s a hand that David played. Before the flop in a $1-$2 game that had a maximum $300 buy-in, David called a limp with the
8♠ 7♠
Five players, not including the small blind, saw the flop, and after the rake there was $10 in the pot. The flop was the
A♠ 9♠ 4♣
which gave David a flush draw. An early position player bet $8, and David called. Now there was $25 (after the rake) in the pot and both players had plenty of chips. The turn was a blank and David’s opponent bet $15 into the $25 pot bringing it to $38 (after the rake). This meant that David would be receiving immediate odds of $38-to-$15, or 2.53-to-1, to call. And since making a flush on the river is approximately 4-to-1, even if David can collect an additional bet when his flush comes in, this does not seem like enough to warrant a call. But David went ahead and called, bringing the pot to $52 (after the rake).
The flush card came on the river. The early position player checked, and David bet $70, $18 more than the size of the pot. And after thinking for a while, the early position player called and his top pair lost to the flush and David made $108 on his $15 call, which is approximately 7.2-to-1 on a 4-to-1 shot.
All due respect Mason. My experience in multi way pots where everyone is calling down to the river hoping to catch is that you are no longer a favorite to win even when starting out with the best hand, pre flop and after the flop. Too many players looking for an out and you become an underdog. Better to bet some of them off their hands pre flop imo. I rarely played any lower than 10-20 LHE but on occasion I did play 4-8 and 6-12 games with a Kill, making the next hand either 8-16 or 12-24. Those were wild games with most all pots multi way. Many pots were well into the hundreds and some exceeded $500. The funny thing to me, was that often the winner of one of these pots would throw $5 or even $10 to the dealer, a bigger tip then we give in most 15-30 or 20-40 LHE games. This after the pot had been raked for maybe twenty bucks (I watched them do it!). Second funny thing is that most of these low limit players are not even paying attention to the rake! I know you know that too.
That said, I did make money in those games, playing very carefully, and getting out if I did not hit the flop good (set or nut flush draw, like that). Two pair on the flop is sketchy in games like that, with a co-ordinated board. Let me win a couple of good pots and I would take my little score to the door. I knew that hanging around could swiftly cut into my winnings. Yes, you could call that hit and run, but it worked quite often.
They used to have a juicy 8-16 Omaha High game at the Orleans, don't know if it's still there, but the pots got huge in that game, with four or five players going all the way. For a few years I played occasionally at Hollywood Park and the Hustler in the 2-5 NL games. Can't remember when I ever lost, maybe broke about even a few times. True that! I don't get out much anymore but I did okay for a mid level rec player. I'm kicking back these days collecting rent money, so life is good.
One main issue with multi-way pots is your overall fold to cbet stat goes way down. This costs you a lot of money, plus your equity goes down, and it’s way harder to win the hand preflop or on the flop.
Without seeing the math, I’d say you guys made this one up and are woefully wrong. Like I said tho I’ll buy the book and go through it with a red pen
All due respect Mason. My experience in multi way pots where everyone is calling down to the river hoping to catch is that you are no longer a favorite to win even when starting out with the best hand, pre flop and after the flop. Too many players looking for an out and you become an underdog. Better to bet some of them off their hands pre flop imo. I rarely played any lower than 10-20 LHE but on occasion I did play 4-8 and 6-12 games with a Kill, making the next hand either 8-16 or 12-24. Thos
What's the point of hit and running in limit? I understand why people do it in big bet games but it seems silly in limit.
Three reasons to sometimes prefer multi way are:
1. Hands that have about the same EV if played either head up or multiway in a rakeless game, usually have a lower EV heads up if there is a rake because the rake is taken from them more often than it would be multiway.
2. If one of the players multiway is a calling station and another opponent is a good player, you won't' get bluffed out very often by the good player. The syndrome is true to a lesser extent even if there is no calling station. in t
I think the rake difference is pretty minor and offset by being less likely to take down hands preflop.
Not having the ability to bluff as frequently is not a positive or negative attribute, it's just an attribute of multiway that generally benefits the average bad player more often, as it helps passive players play correctly.
As far as it being more profitable multiway, I don't think this is necessarily true, because multiway your range advantage is doing less work for you since you're less likely to be good with 1 pair and dominate overly wide players.
One main issue with multi-way pots is your overall fold to cbet stat goes way down. This costs you a lot of money, plus your equity goes down, and it’s way harder to win the hand preflop or on the flop.
This is nonsense.
Paraphrasing Galfond: "Your goal is to make money not win pots". Things like fold to cbet are descriptive, not prescriptive, and the values only make sense within a specified context. If I've playing in a game where everyone sees the flop except me and I get to play optimal (for this game) preflop then when I do see the flop I will be folding a lot and c-betting very infrequently. These are clear adjustments. I will also make a lot of money since my opponents are playing so bad and pots will be very large when I do win a pot.
You don't need to win more hands to win more money.
I haven't read this book, and probably won't as I'm not playing these games, and I have no dog in this fight, but this is gibberish.
You get way more folds from Cbets the less players there are in Single raised pots. I don’t know about 3/4! Pots
Do you agree or disagree?
All other things equal, you get more folds from cbets the less players there are in a single raised pot
You get way more folds from Cbets the less players there are in Single raised pots. I don’t know about 3/4! Pots
Do you agree or disagree?
All other things equal, you get more folds from cbets the less players there are in a single raised pot
Obviously but that doesn't prove your point.
Fish don't understand relative vs absolute value. You also get to play more rivers vs multiple fish in MW pots when equities are 100%/0% which decreases variance and boosts EV.
You should look at winrates (hint they are all negative) of fish street by street to understand why playing in MW pots with them is a superior strategy to getting heads up. This is why limping preflop with the majority of your hands in a game filled with fish is a better strategy than RFing.
Everybody at the table is a fish below $2/5 with a $1k cap buyin
I’d rather play HU and win at a higher freq. I’ve seen no proof that going multi-way is more profitable nor a better strategy than being HU
Everybody at the table is a fish below $2/5 with a $1k cap buyin
I’d rather play HU and win at a higher freq. I’ve seen no proof that going multi-way is more profitable nor a better strategy than being HU
Exactly, you just proved yourself wrong.
You are conflating frequency with EV.
I’ll buy your book
1.) what exact hands are you referring to ?
2) my gut tells me that getting bluffed less is not worth the accompanying decrease in EV we get from adding extra players to a hand
3) see number 2
But hey DooDoo, his gut tells him this, so no need to analyze this any further. /thread 🙄
I def could be wrong
Where’s the work that proves the authors contention
You would need to code your own bots to play like fish and then code a bot to play like you and compare the EV of the two strategies after running multiple million hand simulations in the same way Saulo Costa did with his GTO bots.
or
You can trust players that are much better than you
Those are your only two options.
You would need to code your own bots to play like fish and then code a bot to play like you and compare the EV of the two strategies after running multiple million hand simulations in the same way Saulo Costa did with his GTO bots.
or
You can trust players that are much better than you
Those are your only two options.
who are they players that are much better than me?
No I can tell by what's posted in this thread I don't need to. As soon as someone starts advocating intentionally putting yourself in multiway spots and checking hands like KK in lose passive games That's all I need to see. Now if it was an aggressive game it's little less horrible as you have a better chance of going for a back raise. In a 1-2 or similar game playing kings the way Sklansky played them you're literally saying I would like to play them in a 4 or 5 way pot.
No I can tell by what's posted in this thread I don't need to. As soon as someone starts advocating intentionally putting yourself in multiway spots and checking hands like KK in lose passive games That's all I need to see. Now if it was an aggressive game it's little less horrible as you have a better chance of going for a back raise. In a 1-2 or similar game playing kings the way Sklansky played them you're literally saying I would like to play them in a 4 or 5 way pot.
We don't say this. You'll need to read the book to see exactly what we do say.
Mason
No I can tell by what's posted in this thread I don't need to. As soon as someone starts advocating intentionally putting yourself in multiway spots and checking hands like KK in lose passive games That's all I need to see. Now if it was an aggressive game it's little less horrible as you have a better chance of going for a back raise. In a 1-2 or similar game playing kings the way Sklansky played them you're literally saying I would like to play them in a 4 or 5 way pot.
I would not prefer to play them in a 4 or 5 way pot and the book doesn't say anything like that.