Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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33857 Replies
what is it trying to accomplish Dun? you left that part out.
Stop the perverse incentive structure where foreign aligned militias are allowed to wage a forever war against Israel.
Ansar Allah stopped their blockade the moment the ceasefire went into effect. seems thats a good incentive that actually works. but I do understand why stopping the genocide is not really a viable option for the White Supremacist Empire.
but then Israel decided to starve millions of people and they gave like a 5 day ultimatum until the blockade of Israeli only ships would be reimplemented.
this whole idea of submit or die is the perverse incentive structure. people realize that submission is much worse than fighting back. look at Ukraine. look at the liberal activist in ICE jail.
we can hope that Yemen will extend the blockade to all Western shipping. and bomb the **** out of Saudi's oil. if they can. I am still a Western Supremacist and am skeptical of their capabilities.
Ansar Allah stopped their blockade the moment the ceasefire went into effect. seems thats a good incentive that actually works. but I do understand why stopping the genocide is not really a viable option for the White Supremacist Empire.
but then Israel decided to starve millions of people and they gave like a 5 day ultimatum until the blockade of Israeli only ships would be reimplemented.
this whole idea of submit or die is the perverse incentive structure. people realize that submission is
There are over 6 million Palestinians in the diaspora outside the West Bank and Gaza who "submitted," and they are all doing much better than the ones still waging their forever war to conquer Israel. In the US, Palestinians are recognized as being extremely high SES on average. Similarly, the hundreds of thousands of Arab Jews who were collectively punished, and had to "submit" and leave for places like Israel, Canada and the US are also doing very well. Certainly better than if they were waging a forever war to take back their property they were run out of.
Reality seems to pretty much be the opposite of what you argue.
Speak for yourself. I certainly dont hope for a major Arab war that would get millions killed for no good reason. I am not sure what a giant war that would get millions of Arabs killed would accomplish, other than amusing you. But maybe from your perspective, millions killed for your amusement is a fair trade.
As I said before, the Nakba of Arab Jews who were collective punishment for Israel (which they mostly had nothing to do with) was objectively just as big as that of the Palestinians. Time to call it even and move on.
The Jews "submitted" and are doing as well as can be expected, probably better. Many Palestinians submitted and are also doing fairly well. Some refused, and this is now their reality.
anyone heard of this guy/have any opinions on his stuff
anyone heard of this guy/have any opinions on his stuff
What stuff?
He is an Israeli historian who is regarded as being accurate giving a balanced history of the beginning of Israel, including clearing out numerous Arab towns.
And in his personal life he is of the opinion Palestinians will never make peace, and if Israel wanted to survive it should have cleared them all out. Basically do what Kuwait did. Sent them all packing.
Finklestein, the guy that speaks excruciatingly slow, uses his work a lot to debate Zionists over the nakba.
Finklestein, the guy that speaks excruciatingly slow, uses his work a lot to debate Zionists over the nakba.
He also reported that what would happen a lot is that the Jewish militias would take over a town, all the Arab people would surrender. Then as soon as Arab militias started to attack the town, all the Arab men would run in their houses, grab hidden rifles and start shooting the Jewish militia men in the back. And after this happened a few times, the Jewish militias were not feeling inclined to give Arabs the benefit of the doubt anymore.
As an aside, if/when the Arabs living in Israel really think there is a chance Israel will fall, they will absolutely do something similar, and they will be especially cruel and violent, if for no other reason than self preservation. We already see that Palestinians insurgents offer no clemency to "collaborators," so as a matter of survival the Arabs living in Israel will have to prove their loyalty through violence to Jews.
Given the extremely tribal dynamics of Palestinian culture, Israeli Jews should expect no quarters given, and no mercy, if they aren't completely in control. Which is why the idea of a "one state solution" where all the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza are naturalized is complete and utter nonsense that no one believes would be anything but a disaster. Would make the Syrian, Lebanon and Iraq civil wars look like very mild in comparison.
If/when islamists gain the upper hand it's not going to be a pretty scene.
Israeli Jews should expect no quarters given, and no mercy,
this is a typical sentiment of a genocidal society. they know their decades of mass murder is wrong, so they expect the backlash to match their own depravity.
That being said, if history has shown anything it is that no matter how bad a tribal war may be, once the fighting stops reconciliation and peace can happen. And it can happen fairly quickly, within a generation of two.
That is something Palestinian militants understand very well; which is why it is imperative for them to make sure the fighting never really stops. The greatest danger to their movement is that the Palestinian people stop fighting and get on with their lives.
The 2nd Infintada and 10/7 weren't executed because things were getting worse, they were executed because things were getting better.
Morris started as one of the "New Historians" who proved the then controversial claim that a Nakba occurred. He was then ostracized by Israeli society until he said the Nakba didn't go far enough.
None of them actually murdered by the government, unless your hatmaker works in tinfoil rather than felt. Now, if you'd said Fred Hampton...
Seems unlikely that efforts like cointelpro would distinguish between Hampton and King, especially since King turned anti-war and we know that the FBI tried to pressure and blackmail King into killing himself. Seems like what you are going with as the government's position is like "We're just going to kill this black leader, Hampton, over here because he is doing local community organizing and making speeches sympathetic to alternative economic organization, but this much more nationally popular black leader over here, who is set on attacking our war machine, who we have tried to get to kill himself, we're not going to touch him"
If they assassinated Hampton (and clearly you concede the government did) then they at least tried to assassinate King. And there is a lot of evidence, though not totally conclusive as I understand it, that the government did in fact kill King.
Morris started as one of the "New Historians" who proved the then controversial claim that a Nakba occurred. He was then ostracized by Israeli society until he said the Nakba didn't go far enough.
My getting into this issue, many years ago, was largely based on my randomly picking up "The birth of the Palestinian refugee problem" from my father's bookshelf, thinking like ok what is up with that Palestine thing. I didn't know at the time that both sides of the debate referenced this book as a fact base. It's a very well written and easy to read book while handling complex topics. It has a nice summary of the historical background, of the proto state organization of Palestine during the winding down of the colonial era and the fever of nationalism spreading then. Its focus on documents and rejection of interviews make it seen as a more objective source on the topic, as well does its criticism of both sides.
Trump bombing Yemen is giving Jackson Hinkle fits on twitter
Benny Morris
Spoiler
nice sounds like he makes the right people mad. i ask because i found out today that i'm related to him, third cousins or something
My getting into this issue, many years ago, was largely based on my randomly picking up "The birth of the Palestinian refugee problem" from my father's bookshelf, thinking like ok what is up with that Palestine thing. I didn't know at the time that both sides of the debate referenced this book as a fact base. It's a very well written and easy to read book while handling complex topics. It has a nice summary of the historical background, of the proto state organization of Palestine during the win
interesting because this is what people say about my posts, must run in teh family
the non -interventionist leg of MAGA is hating it a lot which makes it even better.
hope he kills all houthis terrorists ASAP and we can go back to 38-42 day instead of 55-60 for shipments from Asia to europe.
btw this helps Europe and is irrelevant for the USA so he is giving us a big help
Hinkle is about the most obvious controlled opposition I have seen since Bernie Sanders.
Benny Morris is a bad person. He is similar to most other people you will find in high academic positions or public intellectuals but with some interesting differences. They all got to where they are by conforming, by doing their homework and being interested in things they were told to be interested in, by memorizing long lists of vocabulary words to boost their entrance exam scores etc. These people, with a few exceptions, will always have a strong impulse to stay with the group and are ultra conformists regardless of what delusions are dancing around in their heads.
Norm Finkelstein is a counter example. He doesn't give a damn and will not sellout for an academic post. And Norm **** with Morris, again, not because Morris is a good person but because Morris has at least some devotion to truth while being a bad person. In that way Morris is kind of like a Scott Ritter type, someone who has no moral qualms with most programs being executed, but insists they be done eyes wide open and reported on truthfully. Like ok we can screw the Iraqis out of control of their oil, but you need to tell me the game plan and we need to be honest about what we're doing.
the non -interventionist leg of MAGA is hating it a lot which makes it even better.
hope he kills all houthis terrorists ASAP and we can go back to 38-42 day instead of 55-60 for shipments from Asia to europe.
btw this helps Europe and is irrelevant for the USA so he is giving us a big help
Very Helpful for South Korea, Japan and china too.
Pretty intense fighting on border of Syria between HTS and Hezbollah. Israel must feel relived they can just sit this one out and whatever happens is +EV for them.
