Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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ok so I am vaguely familiar with Scahill and although I am not really a fan of Grimm due to his liberal politics and the possibility that he is a sort of stenographer of power in some sense, I have found a lot of the stuff he reports to be at least credible.
anyway they both left the Intercept and started a new site and their first big play is to interview Hamas and actually write what they say.
it basically completely obliterates all of the bullshit about them.
note that Baskin is an Israeli media member
I wasn't paying attention to this thread for a few hours. So to sum it up it would appear Mets complained that "antizionism" as used in this thread is an antisemitic slur, and got banned for it. And then Victor accused 2 entire nations of genocide and said he supports Spain because of their pristine history in this regard. Did I miss anything?
nope. reread it again.
Lets pretend for a minute most of that stuff was true and Hamas really is working for the interest of the Palestinian people. IF that was true, given how the last 9 months have gone it seems pretty clear Hamas should admit they have been a giant failure to the people of Gaza, give back the hostages, and walk away. At any point in the war if they had done this it would have ended, literally that day.
Very hard to argue their continued presence and belligerence will be beneficial for the Palestinian people moving forward. Very hard to argue they have been anything but a disaster from Day 1.
if you read the article and read history, then its very hard to argue the opposite.
That article is nonsense.
Hamas is loser cowards who have betrayed the Palestinian people. They did a pogrom into Israel savagely torturing and murdering a thousand Israelis and then ran back to Gaza with 200 hostages and spent the next 9 months hiding in underground tunnels while Israel destroyed the city they are supposed to be defending.
They spent 15 years incompetently running Gaza completely into the ground by stealing aid to build their war machine, instead of building the city; then started a war and then went and hid. They have no honor or dignity.
There is no future for the people of Gaza under Hamas. Nothing but death and destruction. Not a single thing they purportedly stand for will ever be accomplished as long as they are around to destroy everything. The epitome of failure.
The second Hamas is gone, a slow peace process can start. But with them in the picture, nothing good will ever come.
I dont think the side that has probably killed 500k in some of the most gruesome ways imaginable and is running literal torture camps is going to allow for a free society to emerge.
I dont think the side that has probably killed 500k in some of the most gruesome ways imaginable and is running literal torture camps is going to allow for a free society to emerge.
I think free society is asking way too much. If there is one thing the last 50 years have shown is you cant force democracy, liberal values and tolerance on people who have no interest in such things.
But having leadership that doesn't spend 15 years leeching off a society, starting a major war, and then hiding in holes with hostages as human shields when the counterattack comes would be a nice start.
I think free society is asking way too much. If there is one thing the last 50 years have shown is you cant force democracy, liberal values and tolerance on people who have no interest in such things.
But having leadership that doesn't spend 15 years leeching off a society, starting a major war, and then hiding in holes with hostages as human shields when the counterattack comes would be a nice start.
You understand that repeating a bunch of lies doesn't make it true. You need to be extremely ill informed and morally confused to believe that Hamas actions the last 15 years are in the pursuit of creating a state based on democracy, pluralism and cooperation. They haven't had an election in 15 years and are notorious for killing anyone that threatens their power base. That isn't how democracy and pluralism works.
And even if it was true, look at Gaza. Hamas is a failure. They completely failed the people. They are losers. They start a war, and then hide in holes begging for aid from their enemies. They are a dishonorable disgrace. Nothing they have done has accomplished anything positive for the people. It is a big pile of ****.
would you consider slave revolts to be dishonorable?
10/7 wasn't a slave revolt. That is a horrible framing. The only slaves in Gaza are the Jewish civilians that Hamas took, forcing them into domestic slavery.
But I dont remember any slave revolt where the revolters spent the entire war hiding in holes, mostly attacking their own people, and then begging for aid from the slavers.
now thats a hell of a framing.
who trains these guys?
like Ive never been to war and know practically nothing about it. but it cant be smart to stand this exposed in a window in a war zone.
Another day without an Oct 7 style invasion. Another day of thanking the IDF for doing such a great job and being one of the most highly trained and effective militaries in the world.
Id say its not a great day after they found a bunch of executed civilians in the streets and word got out that IDF executed kids by running over them with tanks. but at least they didnt bomb a football game yet.
No you're wrong, that does count as a great day for the IDF.
it may seem that way. but there are many reports that their ptsd rates are extremely high and there have been quite a few suicide reports.
when you dehumanize others then you must dehumanize yourself first. and that can wear on a person.
Well what the IDF generals and Israeli politicians count as a great day might not be shared by IDF conscripts of course.
Some people were dehumanised at a young age and have had their humanity excavated for so long they've forgotten what it's like to be human and events like this won't wear on them imo.
It will go down as one of the great crimes of our life.
ok so I am vaguely familiar with Scahill and although I am not really a fan of Grimm due to his liberal politics and the possibility that he is a sort of stenographer of power in some sense, I have found a lot of the stuff he reports to be at least credible.
anyway they both left the Intercept and started a new site and their first big play is to interview Hamas and actually write what they say.
yeah i think grim kind of pissed me off with some lib **** a while back, but i don't even remember what it was. if i'm even thinking of the right person. he's been pretty good lately though. also don't really know the other guy. anyway, they were on chapo the other day, talked about gaza, brandon, a bunch of stuff. was pretty good
I remember now that Aaron Mate went hard at Grimm bc he kinda sorta accepted some rape stuff at the beginning. from what I saw Mate came off real bad.
thats a good interview. esp the start. the Khamas health ministry has massively undercounted the dead which likewise make the 200k estimate a joke. some in this thread mockingly asked if 100 or 200k was a genocide? at the time, we were certainly at those numbers. now we are far higher.
this is a crime for which there is no coming back from. total pariah state.
Israeli airstrike kills at least 27 people at school complex near Khan Younis, Gaza Health Ministry says
An Israeli airstrike hit a school complex housing displaced people in southern Gaza and killed at least 27 people on Tuesday, local health officials said, in the fourth such attack in as many days.
Israeli forces targeted the gate of a school housing displaced people in the town of Abasan, east of Khan Younis, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza, which called the attack “a heinous massacre against displaced citizens.”
The strike injured another 53 people, the ministry added, including some who are in a “serious and critical” condition. The death toll is expected to increase, as casualties are still being transferred to the nearby Nasser Hospital.
The Israeli military said it conducted a strike “near” Al-Awda school on Tuesday, and that it had targeted “a terrorist” who participated in the October 7 attacks into southern Israel.
Hamas called for people around the world to “immediately take to the streets and squares in massive demonstrations and rallies” in support of people in Gaza, as well as called for people in the West Bank to support Gaza and clash with Israeli forces.
Well, if the Gaza Health Ministry says it, it must be true...
It is interesting that Hamas appeared to be getting better at booby trapping buildings and inflicting damage on Israeli troops. And this seems to have resulted in Israel going back to bombing first.
As I have said before, Hamas has the right to resist. But Israel doesn't have any obligation to let them win. And for good or bad Israel has shown that Hamas using their own people as human shields to launch attacks from behind isn't going to deter Israel as it has in the past.
