Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
There were "militants" there?
Even IDF says a protestor threw a rock:
Is there new info on this, I know that article is almost a week old now.
The WaPo article that Bill Haywood posted and I quoted was posted yesterday.
There were "militants" there?
Even IDF says a protestor threw a rock:
Is there new info on this, I know that article is almost a week old now.
The WaPo article in question states "protestors" were shooting rocks from slingshots and lighting tires on fire, ostensibly to block visibility and IDF troop movement. And it states this is common in these sort of events.
Militant is probably the wrong term, but clearly it wasn't a "peaceful protest".
And why we should accept a propaganda narrative from a side that is going out of their way to hide all video and physical evidence of said event, I really dont know. Other than that it confirms your pre-existing biases.
Where is the body?
Where is the bullet?
Where are the pictures/videos of said event?
This is basic 5 W stuff, that we are getting almost none of. And we have been conditioned to just accept it all. It really is wild how easy it is to condition even otherwise intelligent, thoughtful people to accept anything as normal and not ask any of the most basic, obvious questions.
The WaPo article in question states "protestors" were shooting rocks from slingshots and lighting tires on fire, ostensibly to block visibility and IDF troop movement. And it states this is common in these sort of events.
Militant is probably the wrong term, but clearly it wasn't a "peaceful protest"
And why we should accept a propaganda narrative from a side that is going out of their way to hide all video and physical evidence of said event, I really dont know. Other than that it confirms yo
The shooting occurred about an hour after the confrontations, and the IDF declined comment because of the ongoing investigation.
"Citing an ongoing investigation, the IDF also declined to answer questions from The Post about why its forces fired toward the demonstrators so long after they had retreated, and from a distance where they posed no apparent threat.
"To reconstruct the day’s events, The Post spoke to 13 eyewitnesses and Beita residents and reviewed more than 50 videos and photos provided exclusively by the International Solidarity Movement, the organization Eygi was volunteering with, and Faz3a, another Palestinian advocacy group. Some foreign activists spoke on the condition they be identified by their first name, or on the condition of anonymity, for fear of Israeli reprisals, including being barred from reentering the country.
[...]
“'The Israeli army started to come to the area on a weekly basis and tried to prevent the Friday prayer several times,' said Dweikat. “'They suppress us with tear gas and bullets, but the activities continued.'
[...]
"It’s unclear how the confrontation began, those present said, but initially it followed the regular rhythm of clashes between heavily armed soldiers and Palestinian protesters. Some threw stones, including with slingshots, while others burned tires on the hillside, photographs show.
"Israeli forces used tear gas to disperse the crowd, then resorted almost immediately to live ammunition, residents and activists said."
"The Friday prayer site — a park with a children’s swing and slide atop a steep hill — was quiet when the international observers arrived. But Israeli soldiers were already positioned along the perimeter, residents and activists said.
[...]
"Since October, Pollak said the use of live fire has become routine in Beita as the military’s 'dispersal means of choice.' The IDF declined to comment on their use of live fire during protests."
Make your own decision, fine. I'm not saying it was a peaceful protest, but to say that the IDF wasn't looking for a fight is disgenuous, as well, to a degree.
Thanks for the link. Sounds like the best case scenario is that IDF incompetence regarding rules of engagement, combined with IDF incompetence in actual performance, led to the death of an innocent bystander. And that's the absolute best case scenario. Pretty on par for what we've seen throughout this conflict.
Thanks for the link. Sounds like the best case scenario is that IDF incompetence regarding rules of engagement, combined with IDF incompetence in actual performance, led to the death of an innocent bystander. And that's the absolute best case scenario. Pretty on par for what we've seen throughout this conflict.
The article is pretty clear that the IDF doesn't disclose rules of engagement for the West Bank, iirc.
Both sides using the "then show the evidence" narrative are pretty far off.
Women should not be required to go public about horrific sexual violence they suffered to be believed. Family should not need to make public the horrific final moments of loved ones to be believed.
Footage of the worst areas suffering from lack of food don't need to be seen to be believed.
In this case we don't need to actually see the gun fired and the corpse to believe what happened.
The article is pretty clear that the IDF doesn't disclose rules of engagement for the West Bank, iirc.
Seems pretty clear why. The problem with IDF's narrative is that previous failures in rules of engagement were not punished. If the rules aren't enforced then there are no rules. If the rules actually allow for the things that we've seen then they need to drastically change the rules.
Seems pretty clear why. The problem with IDF's narrative is that previous failures in rules of engagement were not punished. If the rules aren't enforced then there are no rules. If the rules actually allow for the things that we've seen then they need to drastically change the rules.
They don't need to do ****, man. They act with impunity.
I doubt anyone here is going to click on the link and read. So I will provide cliffs. All the witnesses are anonymous anti Israeli activists. And the video evidence is secret and no one is allowed to watch it.
I know that I for one am very persuaded by secret videos no one can see and biased anonymous activists.
Although FWIW the article does state the "peaceful protesters" were attacking IDF soldiers and burning tires to obscure vision and block IDF troop movement, and IDF responded with tear
Shades of BLM. 95% of protests are peaceful! (let's not talk about the non-peaceful ones)
Both sides using the "then show the evidence" narrative are pretty far off.
Women should not be required to go public about horrific sexual violence they suffered to be believed. Family should not need to make public the horrific final moments of loved ones to be believed.
Footage of the worst areas suffering from lack of food don't need to be seen to be believed.
In this case we don't need to actually see the gun fired and the corpse to believe what happened.
I'm sure some areas are severely lacking in food, the question is whether that is systemic and whether Israel is doing everything in its power to prevent starvation (it isn't and they are). Remember we've been hearing hundreds of thousands are on the verge of starvation, but only 30-40 official reports of death from starvation.
In this case we don't need to actually see the gun fired and the corpse to believe what happened.
You dont. Because you have been conditioned to just accept what WaPo tells you is true.
But if you step outside the magic show it is really absurd we are supposed to just blindly accept propaganda by people that are going out of their way to obfuscate all real evidence of what happened.
The fact we have no bullet, no body, and all the video/photo evidence is being withheld; and we are still supposed to just blindly accept the propaganda narrative of what happened from the people that are actively obfuscating the evidence is really absurd.
Do you think the family of the activist wanted her body paraded around by PIJ militants for show and then disappeared with no autopsy? Not even a picture of what happened. Just "testimony" of activists. It seem the activists/Palestinians are the ones that are completely out of line with how they handled whatever happened and the aftermath, except for the fact you hold them to no standards of behavior at all. So it is all on Israel.
IPC-3 does not necessarily mean that people are starving.
At least 20 percent of households have significant food consumption gaps OR are marginally able to meet minimum food needs only with irreversible coping strategies such as liquidating livelihood assets. Levels of acute malnutrition are high and above normal.
This level is more of a warning that famine is an imminent threat, and if things don't improve that it will remain an imminent threat. We have absolutely been seeing this, especially t
Mass starvation is something that can go from happening gradually to happening suddenly extremely quickly. Even 30-40 official reports is a huge cause for concern.
You dont. Because you have been conditioned to just accept what WaPo tells you is true.
But if you step outside the magic show it is really absurd we are supposed to just blindly accept propaganda by people that are going out of their way to obfuscate all real evidence of what happened.
The fact we have no bullet, no body, and all the video/photo evidence is being withheld; and we are still supposed to just blindly accept the propaganda narrative of what happened from the people that are acti
Can you explain which parts are the propaganda and which parts you doubt?
I'm a little disappointed in Dunyain. Mr. By Any Means Necessary should just stick to justifying the shoot because she was aiding the enemy with solidarity.
The whole story was suspect from the very beginning. Just a random peaceful protest getting shot up by the IDF in a town that is close to multiple border skirmishes being led by an islamist militia. Yeah I'm sure absolutely no urban skirmishes going on in that town that could require escalated military presence.
I'm a little disappointed in Dunyain. Mr. By Any Means Necessary should just stick to justifying the shoot because she was aiding the enemy with solidarity.
That's a parallel approach, but not knowing what actually happened complicates things.
I mean i don't care too much about what actually happened from a moral standpoint because i don't see it as a problem if material supporters of hamas die in general, and the fact that hamas gave her their equivalent of a "state funeral" is proof she was a material supporter (or active member, we will never know).
But i'd like to know what happened to understand how IDF chooses to react to organized violence in protests and so on. The fact that from what we know only her and another person died (or did the other just get injured? ) seems strange if this is about the IDF quelling a violent protest.
Just think of when hamas organized riots in the vicinity of aid distribution, a lot of people died back then when the IDF had to manage the rioting.
So i even can see why victor and others go with the "she was targeted". But otoh, if you want to target an american citizen on purpose, you kill him with a bomb from distance when he is with others claiming the target was a terrorist nearby and you are done with it.
Dunyan point of lack of videos is relevant more generally though. Everytime there is activity in those areas, groups of people doing stuff and so on, with IDF nearby, there are cellphones taking videos. Palestinian cellphones. If they had proof to put the IDF to shame in public they would release it
After 11 months can you explain why you take at face value obviously constructed narratives from bad faith actors you know would lie and withhold truth without any hesitation at all.
Why are you able to notice giant plot holes in Russian propaganda, but are completely indifferent when it is anti-Israel propaganda?
Israel is not denying that they shot her.
Both sides using the "then show the evidence" narrative are pretty far off.
Women should not be required to go public about horrific sexual violence they suffered to be believed. Family should not need to make public the horrific final moments of loved ones to be believed.
Footage of the worst areas suffering from lack of food don't need to be seen to be believed.
In this case we don't need to actually see the gun fired and the corpse to believe what happened.
Feminism says no
Anyway
What’s up with all these settlements ? Is that part of defending yourself ?
What?
Yes. Israel is slowly annexing defensively important high ground that overlooks all their major population centers. And using security corridors to blunt the ability of West Bank Palestinians to conduct asymmetric terror attacks.
Compare the current status quo to the Second Infintada, and it is clear that Israel's actions are facilitating short term security. This is a giant plot hole with the entire anti-Israel West Bank narrative. Is that it doesn't acknowledge what a big problem death and destruction from asymmetric warfare from Palestinian Jihadis was; and how Israel's actions since the Second Infintada have generally mitigated these threats.
Yes. Israel is slowly annexing defensively important high ground that overlooks all their major population centers. And using security corridors to blunt the ability of West Bank Palestinians to conduct asymmetric terror attacks.
Compare the current status quo to the Second Infintada, and it is clear that Israel's actions are facilitating short term security. This is a giant plot hole with the entire anti-Israel West Bank narrative. Is that it doesn't acknowledge what a big problem death an
Are Palestinians allowed to build settlements?
