Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
Spain is trying to put together some kind of summit to plan for Palestinian statehood. Of course the 100 foot elephant that Spain, and the rest of the west is ignoring, is that the non state actors that actually control Palestinian society (Hamas, PIJ, etc.), dont want a state alongside Israel, as they view this as acknowledgement Israel has a right to exist, which they reject.
So with its current dysfunctional society, where non state actors have all the real power, forming a paper Palestinian state would accomplish diddly squat. Which the Arab countries themselves know, which is why they dont even bother.
And even the theoretical Palestinian "moderate" side isn't really motivated to form a state, as it would put a bullet on their back from the militant groups and most of the political elite is grifting refugee aid money. So forming a state would just physically endanger them and cut off their own money supply.
Again, the Palestinian state exists nowhere but in the Western imagination.
Hamas has said for decades that they would abide by a state at the 67 borders if the Palestinian society as a whole desired.
however, Israel recently voted in the Knesset to outlaw a 2 state solution. and just yesterday we got this from the USA rep
look guys, we want the Palestinians to be free and with self determination, but they just arent ready. where have we heard this before? oh I dunno, maybe in the 1850s.
Hamas has said for decades that they would abide by a state at the 67 borders if the Palestinian society as a whole desired.
.
No they have not. One time over 20 years a Hamas official made a non committal response when asked that question, which you are "very generously" interpreting as them abiding.
And this is juxtaposed with about 10,000 official statements saying their goal is to capture all of Israel, expel/kill all the Jews, and establish an Arab ethnostate with Jerusalem as its capital.
The mistake Hamas made was they attacked the wrong people. The people they attacked on Oct 7th weren't settlers, in fact they were peaceful people who actually helped Palestinians in many ways. Although geographically impossible, if Hamas had attacked the settlers in the West Bank I think more of the world would have been on board with their cause.
Hamas has said for decades that they would abide by a state at the 67 borders if the Palestinian society as a whole desired.
however, Israel recently voted in the Knesset to outlaw a 2 state solution. and just yesterday we got this from the USA rep
look guys, we want the Palestinians to be free and with self determination, but they just arent ready. where have we heard this before? oh I dunno, maybe in the 1850s.
Why would Israel ever want to go back to the 67 borders. They were vulnerable to attack back then. They weren't allowed to go to some of their most sacred areas. Maybe if the Arabs were nicer and more accommodating back then we could talk.
Why would Israel ever want to go back to the 67 borders. They were vulnerable to attack back then. They weren't allowed to go to some of their most sacred areas. Maybe if the Arabs were nicer and more accommodating back then we could talk.
ofc Israel doesnt want to go back. they want to drive all of the indigenous Palestinians out of their land. I am pushing back on the people acting like Israel is something it is not.
people are all like, if only the Palestinians would be "peaceful" and good little pets then they could have their country and peace and self determination. thats been shown to be bullshit at every single turn.
No they have not. One time over 20 years a Hamas official made a non committal response when asked that question, which you are "very generously" interpreting as them abiding.
And this is juxtaposed with about 10,000 official statements saying their goal is to capture all of Israel, expel/kill all the Jews, and establish an Arab ethnostate with Jerusalem as its capital.
how many times do they need to beg? seems that asking nicely didnt work.
Where are the Palestinians rising up against Hamas and the Islamists? It seems many young men are willing to die to fight for some insane pipe dream of cleansing all the “European Jews” from the river to the sea, but don’t want to fight to die for liberal democracy. It’s really sad that there is no great Gazan statesman and their leaders are mostly terrorists.
Right? Especially when every single Israeli(except the Arabs, how cruel of us!!!! And the ultra orthodox but thats an entirely separate issue that is being fixed) are conscripted to serve of course they aren't all going to be engaging in combat. There are thousands in the IDF that even during war will never do anything combat or violence related. They have to do their civil service so they are technically part of the IDF, but a 10 year old Palestinian throwing rocks is more involved in the fight
You don’t have to be in a combat role to support a militaries action
This is a really good point that doesn’t get talked about enough. Most IDF soldiers are just following orders.
Right, just following genocidal orders.
The mistake Hamas made was they attacked the wrong people. The people they attacked on Oct 7th weren't settlers, in fact they were peaceful people who actually helped Palestinians in many ways. Although geographically impossible, if Hamas had attacked the settlers in the West Bank I think more of the world would have been on board with their cause.
If you are in a military that does a genocide then you’re not peaceful
Where are the Palestinians rising up against Hamas and the Islamists? It seems many young men are willing to die to fight for some insane pipe dream of cleansing all the “European Jews” from the river to the sea, but don’t want to fight to die for liberal democracy. It’s really sad that there is no great Gazan statesman and their leaders are mostly terrorists.
They have been murdered
Where are the Palestinians rising up against Hamas and the Islamists? It seems many young men are willing to die to fight for some insane pipe dream of cleansing all the “European Jews” from the river to the sea, but don’t want to fight to die for liberal democracy. It’s really sad that there is no great Gazan statesman and their leaders are mostly terrorists.
The entire PLO chose parliamentary democracy. But they couldn't deliver a state so now you have Hamas to deal with.
Many of the great statesman have built up their following in exile. Why aren’t there more Palestinian Americans trying to take charge of Gaza? I’m sure they could get CIA/regime change funding if they tried hard enough.
The entire PLO chose parliamentary democracy. But they couldn't deliver a state so now you have Hamas to deal with.
The PA is not even really able to get full control of the West Bank. It seems like too many young Palestinian men would rather fight a hopeless fight that they see as just than make the tough compromises necessary to form a state.
Where are the Palestinians rising up against Hamas and the Islamists? It seems many young men are willing to die to fight for some insane pipe dream of cleansing all the “European Jews” from the river to the sea, but don’t want to fight to die for liberal democracy. It’s really sad that there is no great Gazan statesman and their leaders are mostly terrorists.
There are probably a lot of them, maybe even a majority - which is why this such a disaater. But their fate currenrly rests in the hands of Sinwar and Co and their combat skills to protect them.
Many of the great statesman have built up their following in exile. Why aren’t there more Palestinian Americans trying to take charge of Gaza? I’m sure they could get CIA/regime change funding if they tried hard enough.
this might be the most rediculous things posted in the thread. ya dude, I am sure the USA is going to fund Palestinian statehood.
European spies claimed that Hezbollah actually killed 22 of Barak Ravid's intelligence brethren in the Unit 8200 spy facility a few weeks ago as retaliation for the assassination in Beirut.
no civilians killed as per usual from the morally conscious Resistance.
You don’t have to be in a combat role to support a militaries action
Right, just following genocidal orders.
If you are in a military that does a genocide then you’re not peaceful
Yeah, but your silicon tech bros are making a larger military impact than the base's librarian from the 70s. Your stretching a position to justify killing israelis.
Yeah, but your silicon tech bros are making a larger military impact than the base's librarian from the 70s. Your stretching a position to justify killing israelis.
Tech bros aren’t legal targets
I’m making sure the facts are right. I haven’t made any arguments. It’s almost impossible due to the untruths the pro IDF side believes
if former Hamas militants were having a peaceful dance party then I am pretty sure the pro-IDF side would argue it is proper to murder them there
You don’t have to be in a combat role to support a militaries action
Right, just following genocidal orders.
If you are in a military that does a genocide then you’re not peaceful
Right, as long as you are following orders you are not at fault for what the actual orders are. I was agreeing with the israeli guy in thread.
if former Hamas militants were having a peaceful dance party then I am pretty sure the pro-IDF side would argue it is proper to murder them there
People were posting earlier that if you’ve materially supported Hamas then you’re fair game
What do you think about that
People were posting earlier that if you’ve materially supported Hamas then you’re fair game
What do you think about that
Was this out of suspicion that they were inside gaza at a dance festival with women kids and the elderly so they must have a connection?
Because if so, theyd be at the same level as you.
