Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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I don't think Israel is prepared under any circumstances to tolerate a Palestinian state, because the Israelis know it would be hostile given their own actions since 1948 and particularly since 1967, and their entire settlement strategy is designed to make such a state impossible. And their present military tactics indicate quite strongly that they do not care about the lives of any children in the region who are not Israelis, beyond a certain concern that such children should preferably not sur
We all saw the godfather and we all know the old Sicilian Mafia lord in Sicily was killed only because he failed to kill the little kid when he had a chance.
Most people watch that and think it's about how violence is a circle.
A few realize it's about ending the circle at the beginning, not about not playing the game
I don't think Israel is prepared under any circumstances to tolerate a Palestinian state, because the Israelis know it would be hostile given their own actions since 1948 and particularly since 1967, and their entire settlement strategy is designed to make such a state impossible. And their present military tactics indicate quite strongly that they do not care about the lives of any children in the region who are not Israelis, beyond a certain concern that such children should preferably not sur
Dishonest. It’s Hamas and Hezbollah who clearly don’t care about children. Israel is not the one placing women and children around military targets. Israel can only do so much while being responsible for its own citizens.
We have to exterminate the children to stop the violence. Also, it's their fault we keep bombing their kids.
Trolls out in full force, did the IDF take out another Hezbollah big shot recently?
We all saw the godfather and we all know the old Sicilian Mafia lord in Sicily was killed only because he failed to kill the little kid when he had a chance.
Most people watch that and think it's about how violence is a circle.
A few realize it's about ending the circle at the beginning, not about not playing the game
So as well as all the killing you want to kill all the people who might be very unhappy about it. And then kill all the people who might be very unhappy at that ...
Going to be a very very long list.
So as well as all the killing you want to kill all the people who might be very unhappy about it. And then kill all the people who might be very unhappy at that ...
Going to be a very very long list.
i don't "want" anything , I am telling what logic dictates if you want to win and preserve the win.
the Comanches aren't going any time soon for their land are they?
human shields
i don't "want" anything , I am telling what logic dictates if you want to win and preserve the win.
the Comanches aren't going any time soon for their land are they?
Neither are the Mexicans and although the war of 1848 was pretty darn awful and stealing more than half of someone's country is very very bad, but there has generally been peace ever since partly because Mexican citizens were offered citizenship when the land was taken and relations between the countries have generally been good.
In the alternate universe where Israel just offered citizenship to everyone in the land they took militarily the people who make up Hamas right now may well just consider themselves Israeli and be happy about it.
And, it's not that Native Americans are happy about everything, but a big part of the reason that they aren't at war with the US right now is that they are US Citizens and are free to move anywhere in the USA.
Neither are the Mexicans and although the war of 1848 was pretty darn awful and stealing more than half of someone's country is very very bad, but there has generally been peace ever since partly because Mexican citizens were offered citizenship when the land was taken and relations between the countries have generally been good.
In the alternate universe where Israel just offered citizenship to everyone in the land they took militarily the people who make up Hamas right now may well just conside
the population of the land taken from Mexico was very small compared to the total population of the USA at the time.
if Israel gives voting right to Gaza + the west bank + people in the "Palestinian diaspora" they + Arab Israelis get the majority, I hope you understand this is existential for the only Jewish majority country worldwide (vs 57 Muslim majority countries).
gazeans should be Egyptians, west bankers should be Jordans.
the main reason natives aren't at war is that anyone who ever thought of being at war and all their families have been slaughtered, and political attitude and character are inheritable.
the population of the land taken from Mexico was very small compared to the total population of the USA at the time.
if Israel gives voting right to Gaza + the west bank + people in the "Palestinian diaspora" they + Arab Israelis get the majority, I hope you understand this is existential for the only Jewish majority country worldwide (vs 57 Muslim majority countries).
gazeans should be Egyptians, west bankers should be Jordans.
the main reason natives aren't at war is that anyone who ever thought
How people would vote if they were granted citizenship right away vs how they vote after generations of occupation is not knowable. I think you're wrong though.
Most of the fighting in the Mexican-American war was South of what is now the border and very few of the people we're talking about or their families were slaughtered. Most of them became US citizens and because of that, most of their descendants consider themselves fully US American.
And your notion that the descendants of the Native Americans are peaceful because they were selected for that is dumb. They are new people who grew up under new circumstances and have different attitudes because of it.
How people would vote if they were granted citizenship right away vs how they vote after generations of occupation is not knowable. I think you're wrong though.
Most of the fighting in the Mexican-American war was South of what is now the border and very few of the people we're talking about or their families were slaughtered. Most of them became US citizens and because of that, most of their descendants consider themselves fully US American.
And your notion that the descendants of the Native Am
even a 1 in 1000 chances they will vote to persecute Jews is a lot more than enough not to risk it.
you wouldn't be willing to bet the life of everyone you care about on the voting propensity of strangers, especially if it's strangers that for a while have been trying to kill everyone you care about.
yes for Mexico I already acknowledged that, it was very few people.
If Gaza had 50k residents they would be granted citizenship to Israel and the territory annexed for a "one state solution", that's obvious.
you can disregard inheritability of all character traits if you want but that doesn't change reality
You do make the strongest possible anti Israel case. You would put all those who want to live in peace in the position where they would have to fight israel to survive.
I dont agree at all.
You do make the strongest possible anti Israel case. You would put all those who want to live in peace in the position where they would have to fight israel to survive.
I dont agree at all.
Egypt and Jordan already live in peace with Israel, the rest should follow them.
Egypt alone makes up more than half the total population of the area btw.
why exactly should Jews be diluted in the only Jewish majority country in the planet, instead of simply annexing Gaza to Egypt with which it shares language, religion, genetics and culture?
Yes. Peace is definitely a far better pat.
you cant have peace with occupation, oppression, and supremacy. and even if Israel succeeds in genociding the Palestinians, then they will move on to Egypt Lebanon and Syria. and in 20 40 80 200 years people will be saying how its "complicated."
America is providing Hamas with an unlimited supply of weapons
How people would vote if they were granted citizenship right away vs how they vote after generations of occupation is not knowable. I think you're wrong though.
Most of the fighting in the Mexican-American war was South of what is now the border and very few of the people we're talking about or their families were slaughtered. Most of them became US citizens and because of that, most of their descendants consider themselves fully US American.
And your notion that the descendants of the Native Am
I think you are deluded. Lebanon is probably a best case scenario. Sectarian divisions, conflict, violence, failed state. There is a reason there is no functional, diverse democracies in this part of the world. The people there are too tribal, corrupt, and view everything in zero sum terms.
Anyways, it is a moot point. There is absolutely no will from anyone in the world for a 1 state solution, especially Muslim leaders who understand their people much more than you do. It is a complete non starter.
I am listening to a podcast of Jordan Peterson with former PM Bennett. I am not that far through, but one thing he has brought up that is completely at odds with western media narratives is that he said there is absolutely no will in Israel to talk about a 2 state solution right now. Not even from the left. Not when 10/7 is still so new, is still being celebrated by the Palestinians the way it is, and certainly not while there is still hostages and fighting.
He said he personally is a against a 2 state solution, as he thinks it would be a giant, violent failure. But he believes in the democratic process and it is something that could and should be addressed democratically at some point. But he says it isn't something anyone is considering right now.
ya no ****, I have posted the same exact thing dozens of times. 2 state solution is a Western liberal fantasy. its not an option. Israel will never accept it.
I am listening to a podcast of Jordan Peterson with former PM Bennett. I am not that far through, but one thing he has brought up that is completely at odds with western media narratives is that he said there is absolutely no will in Israel to talk about a 2 state solution right now. Not even from the left. Not when 10/7 is still so new, is still being celebrated by the Palestinians the way it is, and certainly not while there is still hostages and fighting.
He said he personally is a against
Certainly no motivated reasoning in a guy who was the PM for a party who opposed a 2-state solution as part of their platform to say that a 2-state solution is not possible
Certainly no motivated reasoning in a guy who was the PM for a party who opposed a 2-state solution as part of their platform to say that a 2-state solution is not possible
You completely missed the point. Independent of his personal views, he said there is no will to discuss it right now by most Israelis.
The entire western world is operating as if they can just will it into being if they talk about it enough, and is completely tone deaf that there is no interest in Israel (or the Palestinians FWIW) to even talk about it right now.
I am paraphrasing, but he basically said we need to figure out some sort of detente/peace first; and then a potential 2 state solution is something that can be brought up years down the line.
I think you are deluded. Lebanon is probably a best case scenario. Sectarian divisions, conflict, violence, failed state. There is a reason there is no functional, diverse democracies in this part of the world. The people there are too tribal, corrupt, and view everything in zero sum terms.
Anyways, it is a moot point. There is absolutely no will from anyone in the world for a 1 state solution, especially Muslim leaders who understand their people much more than you do. It is a complete n
Things in Lebanon and Israel were better when I was a kid. That much is obviously true. Why are things worse? Walls and war. A one state solution is obviously a non-starter now, but it wasn't 45 years ago and it won't necessarily be 45 years from now.
States suck though and no reasonable, intelligent, moral person should have any loyalty to any of them.
