Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
ya no ****, I have posted the same exact thing dozens of times. 2 state solution is a Western liberal fantasy. its not an option. Israel will never accept it.
Yep! You're never gonna get almost a million heavily armed settlers out of the West Bank. Also, I don't think Israelis could ever trust Palestinians after what happened on Oct 7th.
You completely missed the point. Independent of his personal views, he said there is no will to discuss it right now by most Israelis.
The entire western world is operating as if they can just will it into being if they talk about it enough, and is completely tone deaf that there is no interest in Israel (or the Palestinians FWIW) to even talk about it right now.
I am paraphrasing, but he basically said we need to figure out some sort of detente/peace first; and then a potential 2 state solutio
I must have misunderstood, because I broadly agree with this. However what I would say is that I think he has to speak to his base, because from a non-Israeli perspective where we have to mediate between Israel and Palestine, the two state solution is a carrot we can use in negotiations.
Yep! You're never gonna get almost a million heavily armed settlers out of the West Bank. Also, I don't think Israelis could ever trust Palestinians after what happened on Oct 7th.
That’s probably exactly how the British felt when the IRA attempted to assassinate their Prime Minister with a car bomb. I think it’s empirically wrong that states that have been in even extreme conflict involving terrorism can’t settle down and find some kind of peace even within a generation.
I do recognize though it’s a little bit different because England didn’t have to deal with a bunch of different states that also wanted to see their destruction and were supporting the IRA. So I’m not saying it’s a one to one comparison.
I must have misunderstood, because I broadly agree with this. However what I would say is that I think he has to speak to his base, because from a non-Israeli perspective where we have to mediate between Israel and Palestine, the two state solution is a carrot we can use in negotiations.
That’s probably exactly how the British felt when the IRA attempted to assassinate their Prime Minister with a car bomb. I think it’s empirically wrong that states that have been in even extreme conflict involvin
The difference is you have religious fanatics on both sides who will never be interested in a compromise.
Things in Lebanon and Israel were better when I was a kid. That much is obviously true. Why are things worse? Walls and war. A one state solution is obviously a non-starter now, but it wasn't 45 years ago and it won't necessarily be 45 years from now.
States suck though and no reasonable, intelligent, moral person should have any loyalty to any of them.
Why were the walls built?
I must have misunderstood, because I broadly agree with this. However what I would say is that I think he has to speak to his base, because from a non-Israeli perspective where we have to mediate between Israel and Palestine, the two state solution is a carrot we can use in negotiations.
He was being interviewed by a Canadian "alt right" psychologist/social commentator for an American audience. He certainly was not "speaking to his base," who aren't listening to Jordan Peterson podcasts to see what their former Prime Minister (who isn't even in politics at the moment) has to say.
His point is the 2 state solution is not a carrot for Israelis or Palestinians, as neither is interested in this right now. It is something Western politicians/elites bring up to appeal to their own domestic base; and it has no penetration at all into Israeli or Palestinian society. And because our media is more interested in pushing their own propaganda than reporting reality, many Westerners dont even realize this.
Fear, nationalism, racism. Often stoked by self-serving politicians.
Same thing could have happened in Ireland and walls would have made things worse there.
Well, there was also this little thing called the Second Infintada that featured a tremendous amount of Palestinian violence aimed at Israeli civilians in Israel. And the wall, along with numerous military operations to dismantle terror cells; has mostly mitigated this.
He was being interviewed by a Canadian "alt right" psychologist/social commentator for an American audience. He certainly was not "speaking to his base," who aren't listening to Jordan Peterson podcasts to see what their former Prime Minister (who isn't even in politics at the moment) has to say.
His point is the 2 state solution is not a carrot for Israelis or Palestinians, as neither is interested in this right now. It is something Western politicians/elites bring up to appeal to their own
For the first part, first of all I disagree with the characterization of Peterson being alt-right. For as much as I disagree with Peterson, he is pretty explicit in his disavowal of white supremacy/separatism/nationalism and anti-Jewish conspiracies, which are the two basic positions entailed by being alt-right. Secondly, I guess fair he might not be speaking to a base of support in Israel but he is always speaking to right-wing zionists of which there will be plenty listening to a right wing podcast.
For the second part, I’m just unsure of this, because this is the same tact taken by arab/Muslim states within the region as far as signaling towards a two state solution. It seems like it’s the general international solution rather than being a particular Western politician/elite thing. Even someone like China is going to advocate for a two state solution as the path of LEAST resistance (not no resistance).
The Islamic world calls for guaranteeing the security of Israel in return for a Palestinian state.
https://x.com/ForeignMinistry/status/183...
So much for the canard about all of Islam determined to destroy Israel.
Nobody ever said that, Mr. Canard.
Obviously the UN will be writing a blank check to rebuild the school system. But hopefully this time they dont let their schools front as terrorist bases, and teach radicalism and antisemitism like the last iteration.
Starting the school system over from scratch may be the best thing for the Palestinians; considering how malignant and counterproductive the current iteration is.
Agreed.
Hamas has asked for peace many times over the last few decades. Ive cited it many times in this thread. they are on record over and over asking for a Palestinian state with self determination and free of occupation at the 1967 borders.
occupied people have the right to self defense and the highest courts on the planet have consistently ruled that they are illegally occupied by Israel therefore they have every right to armed resistance.
Hamas's requests do sound impossible but that is reflection
I do not think you know what the definition of peace is. At least, you understand the concept of peace as much as Hamas does. Please, show me something Hamas put in writing that describes their "peace" plan. Keep in mind, a cease fire is not peace. So, avoid any response that merely references a cease fire. Not officially and overtly recognizing the right of Israel to exist is not a peace plan. So, avoid any response that fails to state this explicitly.
That’s probably exactly how the British felt when the IRA attempted to assassinate their Prime Minister with a car bomb. I think it’s empirically wrong that states that have been in even extreme conflict involving terrorism can’t settle down and find some kind of peace even within a generation.
Neither attempts were car bombs. The Brighton bomb was far, far bigger than that. You’re probably confusing them with the car bomb that killed a prominent Tory MP in the HoP car park.
What brought the IRA to the negotiating table was it being rendered impotent by widespread infiltration that may even have included both its leader and the head of Sinn Fein.
Nevertheless the point remains that ultimately freedom fighters/terrorists must usually be negotiated with to achieve peace.
Fear, nationalism, racism. Often stoked by self-serving politicians.
Same thing could have happened in Ireland and walls would have made things worse there.
The momvemnt to build the wall was birthed by the israeli peace movement, as a response for the fail peace talks. The idea was separation, as peace agreements seemed far away and unattainable.
Throwing buzz words like racism is understood, but lacks basis, as many jewish settlements were left on the "other" side of the wall, and many arab villages were left in. if israel wanted to use the wall as a way to increase jewish supremacy, the landscape of the wall would have ended completely different.
Fear as and is definitely one of the main reasons that the wall is supported by most of the jewish population (minus some settlers and far right and far left groups)
In Iran you get arrested for dancing
no wait, thats Israel.
and a Hebrew thread from a liberal Zionist account. https://x.com/FakeReporter/status/184357...
tell me more about how non-Jewish Arabs live in peace and harmony with equal rights in Israel.
I am not sure bringing up this topic is doing your side any favors. The fact you literally cannot dance or sing in public in Iran, or Gaza, is kind of an indication these are not very healthy societies; and is the polar opposite of Israel.
And obviously although many (including many Israeli Jews) would agree Israel is currently way too harsh on activism; you can still get away with WAY WAY WAY more anti regime activism in Israel than in Iran or Gaza.
Again, bringing up topics where Israel is clearly the morally superior side compared to fundamental Islamist societies like Iran and Gaza is not doing you any favors.
Im pretty sure you can dance in Gaza lol. or could.
and no, this women wasnt doing activism.
For the first part, first of all I disagree with the characterization of Peterson being alt-right. For as much as I disagree with Peterson, he is pretty explicit in his disavowal of white supremacy/separatism/nationalism and anti-Jewish conspiracies, which are the two basic positions entailed by being alt-right. Secondly, I guess fair he might not be speaking to a base of support in Israel but he is always speaking to right-wing zionists of which there will be plenty listening to a right wing po
I am the one that subscribes to Jordan Peterson podcasts and listens to every one the topic interests me. So you dont need to convince me he isn't a bad guy. My perception of the term "alt right" is different than yours, but it isn't something I have spent a lot of time thinking about, so your perception could very likely be more correct.
In respects to China, Gulf States, etc. it seems everyone is signaling to their own constituents, and is kind of ignoring the elephant in the room that no one in Israel or Palestinian Territories is thinking about any 2 state solution right now. It is all just empty signaling IMO.
The momvemnt to build the wall was birthed by the israeli peace movement, as a response for the fail peace talks. The idea was separation, as peace agreements seemed far away and unattainable.
Throwing buzz words like racism is understood, but lacks basis, as many jewish settlements were left on the "other" side of the wall, and many arab villages were left in. if israel wanted to use the wall as a way to increase jewish supremacy, the landscape of the wall would have ended completely different.
F
I was talking about the motivation for the wall and its effect, not what people hoped the effect would be. The effect has been less contact between ordinary Israelis and ordinary Palestinians. The alienation has made dehumanization easier. It makes peace harder.
I was talking about the motivation for the wall and its effect, not what people hoped the effect would be. The effect has been less contact between ordinary Israelis and ordinary Palestinians. The alienation has made dehumanization easier. It makes peace harder.
Exactly what Hamas intended when it bombed the crossings.
weird, bc they keep saying they want peace and agreeing to cease-fire deals.
Fear, nationalism, racism. Often stoked by self-serving politicians.
Same thing could have happened in Ireland and walls would have made things worse there.
'Peace walls' are and have long been a thing in Northern Ireland, particularly in Belfast. They're mainly now tourist attractions, covered with decorative murals, which American visitors like to take pictures of and shake their heads at, but they're still there, because people worry about what might happen if they weren't when a riot kicked off.
Of course the difference in Northern Ireland versus the West Bank is that the people on both sides are citizens with full and equal civil rights.
