Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
What happened to the 150 thousand rockets that were gonna rain onto Israel by Hezbollah?
I am not sure what you are talking about. while Israel and the USA are bombing civilians, Hezbollah are using their relatively limited weaponry to take out invading soldiers.
its actually quite sad seeing the pictures of these young Israelis, some still with braces who are now dead bc of an ideology of conquest and theft driven by hatred. and tbc, I mean Western supremacist idealogy.
The part following "in exchange for" is what was they were asking for in return.
25% of Lebanon forced out of homes
Video of what Gaza looks like now
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Lebanese missile strikes Haifa
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Large amount of secondary explosions after strike in Beirut. (Hezbollah claimed there were no weapons in the areas Israel struck)
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Allegedly footage of US Navy striking Yemen
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Btw just to refute some very bad information in here earlier:-Israel is short on weapons-Israel is short on man power (and is trying to get the ultra-orthodox to serve to fix it)-the economy is getting battered-Moody's axed Israeli creditSo you're damn right Israel is trying to end this fast, and hard. Anyone who understands how the IDF has ever fought a war, knows it is not de
These are all excellent reasons for Israel to not drag this out. Unfortunately Israel's actions don't line up with this.
in exchange for not invading? really?
its a big ask to ask Israel to follow international law?
but even looking at it in a results oriented fashion, how is that at all a good thing? unless there is support for mass murder and ethnic cleansing this has been a disaster.
like how can you say that what is happening right now is better than accepting the hostages back and negotiating a POW exchange? the only way that I can see is if there is support for the genocide across now 2 countries.
It was not against international law for Israel to enter Gaza, even if many of the actions Israel has taken after entering Gaza are against international law.
I haven't said or suggested a lot of what is in your post. I pointed out that your statement "they offered the civilian hostages back for nothing in return" is directly refuted by your own source. The questions that follow are looking at it in a results oriented fashion, which seeks to shift the goalposts.
they didnt "enter" Gaza. just like Russia didnt "enter" Ukraine. they invaded. and they used military force which is illegal under international law on occupied territories.
asking Israel do something they already were not allowed to do is not actually making demands.
like, if I ask the local mob boss not to kill my brother and I offer up all of the drugs that he stole from him, thats not actually making demands. thats asking the man to follow the law. but I understand how absurd it is to ask a mob boss to follow the law. or Israel.
I think thats where your hangup lies.
they offered the civilian hostages back for nothing in return. they wanted to negotiate a prisoner exchange for the captives from the army. this was reported in Israeli media extensively and the lead hostage liason eventually came public with it. Hamas and Palestinian sources alleged this from Oct. but it wasnt until like Apr that it was corroborated by Israeli media. (and
They did NOT offer the civilian hostages back "for nothing in return". They offered them in return for Israel not entering the Gaza strip. You did read what you wrote, right?. That was a massive, huge request and one that absolutely, positively had no chance of working. You understand why, right? Maybe you don't?
The only option Hamas ever had was to ask for a permanent peace treaty with Israel. Something they clearly have no intention of ever doing. Offering to return hostages for, in effect, a cease fire, so that Hamas could regroup and repeat their horrendous attacks on Israel again and again had zero chance of working. Posters like yourself may enjoy attacking everything that Israel does, and make apologies for everything that Hamas does, but the arguments you put forth are devoid of logic or grounding in reality. Maybe, like others in the world, you want Israel destroyed just like Hamas wants Israel destroyed? Maybe you don't, you tell me. I am just trying to understand the reason you continue to give credibility to the patently impossible requests Hamas has made.
I am not sure what you are talking about. while Israel and the USA are bombing civilians, Hezbollah are using their relatively limited weaponry to take out invading soldiers. its actually quite sad seeing the pictures of these young Israelis, some still with braces who are now dead bc of an ideology of conquest and theft driven by hatred. and tbc, I mean Western supremacis
Israel is eliminating the threat from the north so it's citizens can return home. Israel must restore it's reputation of being a safe place for Jews to visit and to come live.
they didnt "enter" Gaza. just like Russia didnt "enter" Ukraine. they invaded. and they used military force which is illegal under international law on occupied territories.
asking Israel do something they already were not allowed to do is not actually making demands.
Israel has the right to defend itself.
they offered the civilian hostages back for nothing in return. they wanted to negotiate a prisoner exchange for the captives from the army. this was reported in Israeli media extensively and the lead hostage liason eventually came public with it. Hamas and Palestinian sources alleged this from Oct. but it wasnt until like Apr that it was corroborated by Israeli media. (and
Don't you think the real mistake was taking the hostages in the first place?
like, if I ask the local mob boss not to kill my brother and I offer up all of the drugs that he stole from him, thats not actually making demands. thats asking the man to follow the law. but I understand how absurd it is to ask a mob boss to follow the law. or Israel.
I think thats where your hangup lies.
What about the laws broken by Hamas on Oct 7th?
What percentage of the people in Lebanon support Hez? Maybe someone who can offer a little more than whqt vague google can. NotrainingMan? Im getting vibes that hez is just another overpowered group of knuckle draggers based on everything that ia confirmed.
Victor,
"Enter" was the verb used in your source when referring to what Hamas offered. If you do not like that framing then take it up with Hamas. If you think Reuters misrepresented what Hamas said then take it up with Reuters.
If you are asking for my opinion on why "invade" was not used, it is because colloquially this word is used to mean entering a country with the intent of occupying long term or annexing. If Hamas had only offered to return the hostages in order to avoid an invasion, Israel would still have the right to enter Gaza in response, which is exactly what Hamas was trying to avoid. They weren’t only concerned about the term "invasion"; they were trying to prevent any form of entry.
If you are confused about what word "enter" means, we can look at your own example: Russia did enter Ukraine; Russia entered Ukraine in an attempt to invade and annex the entire country. That is not legal. It was also illegal for Russia to even enter Ukraine, because there was no October 7th event launched by Ukraine.
Emotional appeals seeking to paint Israel as a "mob boss", or Israel's response as another version of Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, are extremely flawed and not needed. Hamas led a large scale attack against Israel on October 7th, and according to UN article 51, Israel is allowed to respond:
"Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations [...]"
While (many) actions that Israel has taken since entering Gaza are not legal, Israel having the right to a response is legally justified. Hopefully this helps a few of your numerous hangups.
What percentage of the people in Lebanon support Hez? Maybe someone who can offer a little more than whqt vague google can. NotrainingMan? Im getting vibes that hez is just another overpowered group of knuckle draggers based on everything that ia confirmed.
It's extremely difficult to look at overall approval for any political group in Lebanon. Hezbollah has 66% approval rate among Shia, but very very low approval rates among the other religious groups. This is true of just about every party: their religious group likes them, but the other religious groups do not.
"Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations [...]"
While (many) actions that Israel has taken since entering Gaza are not legal, Israel having the right to a response is legally justified. Hopefully this helps a few of your numerous hangups.
Also, we should keep in mind that Hamas perception of "civilian" is probably closer to PointlessWords, than yours or mine. So they probably wouldn't have given very many hostages back, if this report is even true (which it isn't likely to be).
It's extremely difficult to look at overall approval for any political group in Lebanon. Hezbollah has 66% approval rate among Shia, but very very low approval rates among the other religious groups. This is true of just about every party: their religious group likes them, but the other religious groups do not.
Yeah. Lebanon is a sectarian mess. Probably an omen of what is going to happen to many Western nations when they become majority minority or close to it; especially the ones that continue to import large numbers of people with a tribal, zero sum mindset.
They did NOT offer the civilian hostages back "for nothing in return". They offered them in return for Israel not entering the Gaza strip. You did read what you wrote, right?. That was a massive, huge request and one that absolutely, positively had no chance of working. You understand why, right? Maybe you don't?The only option Hamas ever had was to ask for a permanent peace tr
Hamas has asked for peace many times over the last few decades. Ive cited it many times in this thread. they are on record over and over asking for a Palestinian state with self determination and free of occupation at the 1967 borders.
occupied people have the right to self defense and the highest courts on the planet have consistently ruled that they are illegally occupied by Israel therefore they have every right to armed resistance.
Hamas's requests do sound impossible but that is reflection of how twisted our world is that the West feels entitled to destroy an entire society and do plausible genocide. like, Hamas has asked for Israel to stop killing Gazans and allow them to rebuild. they are asking for basic human dignity and freedom.
Victor,"Enter" was the verb used in your source when referring to what Hamas offered. If you do not like that framing then take it up with Hamas. If you think Reuters misrepresented what Hamas said then take it up with Reuters.If you are asking for my opinion on why "invade" was not used, it is because colloquially this word is used to mean entering a country with the intent of
https://www.icrc.org/en/document/ihl-occ....
this is from the Council of Foreign Relations lol not exactly anti-West but its interesting in relation to the hostages
nothing that we have seen since Oct 7th remotely looks like a "law enforcement" operation.
If you are asking for my opinion on why "invade" was not used, it is because colloquially this word is used to mean entering a country with the intent of occupying long term or annexing.
This is rather straight-forwardly not true.
