Ukraine-Russia War Take 2

Remember when the right was all about Live Free or Die? Good times.

A few questions.

Why do you think it is so important for western Europe leaders to get into military alliances with Ukraine? I am not talking about the sheeple that just follow whatever slogan is trendy at the moment, but the actual decision makers? What is the actual upside from their perspective?

Do you think it is a mistake to let ourselves get potentially entangled more with a mineral deal?

Also, is there an argument we shouldn't let Russia get too weak, just because of the 5500 nuclear weapons? They need to stay strong enough to keep control of these, if nothing else?

Yep. They twist the bible to justify their horribleness just like the taliban twists the koran.

It still is, for itself lol, not for everyone on the planet , it never was.

Well, I think there was a time where there was a genuine belief that we would impose our values on the rest of the world, the world would see how everyone benefitted, and get in line. But at this point it is clear that wasn't true. The rest of the world mostly prefers xenophobic, zero sum ideologies. So there is no good reason to try to impose liberal values of Western Civilization on the world.

This is something Lee Kuan Yew talked about a lot. Chinese are not Western Europeans or Americans. So Singapore had to find its own way to thrive under its own ideological frameworks.

That may be true, but there sure isn't a good reason to impose the values of Putin on the world.

How are the "values of Putin" imposed to people in , say, Spain, if Ukraine becomes Belarus 2.0?

I said why i think it was important to help ukraine fight, to weaken putin. I don't think it is important to enter a long term military alliance with Ukraine, i think it would be folly to do so.

I think the mineral deal is fake as explained, there are no meaningful minerals to get a "deal" about (the entire globale "rare earth" market is 8 bln per year, lol at thinking Ukraine could add more than 1-2 billions at most per year , years from now if we start investing in mines today).

It would be a fake deal that trump can use to trumpet to his base that he recouped american investment in ukraine

Putin has the same values as the West.

We can always count on you for some light humor.

Why do you think Western European leaders are so hell bent on military alliances with Ukraine? Are they just taking the "weaken Russia" plan too far, or do they have other motives you think?

BRICS economy is bigger than G7. The world has freely chosen the values they prefer.

They were with the previous administration (remember how often we were cautious about how much to send in actual military equipment, how often Poland and the baltics claimed correctly that the rest of europe wasn't doing nearly as much as they could and so on).

Currently there is a lot of chaos and a lot of words are being spit but we can't know how much in reality various european countries are willing to do until we see facts. For sure there is a generic strong anti-trump sentiment that makes many people declare in favor of ukraine just because that's what signals you are anti-trump.

But fromt here, to how much in reality we are willing to do if the USA stops helping completly and the war goes on, we can't know beforehand.

In my opinion it would have been slightly preferable to keep pounding a bit, with the same intensity we did last 3-6 months, signaling we might be willing to do so for years (again: with USA in the mix of course).

But without a clear american commitment to continue it's redicolous to think we can help enough by ourselves so we have to bend the knee to american will and give up.

The re-arming of europe is a bit of a joke, it will be a huge waste of money and most of it will go to employee NEET in poor areas of europe with fake "military jobs" that will never be about actual armed forces.

Some actually think there is a non-0 chance they could be invaded by Russia down the line in 5-10-20 years.

So they are much more willing to go allin right now than countries further from Russia geographically are.

"According to Mayor Fedoruk, the greatest number of killings by Russian forces were in the Yablonska, Sklozavodska, and Lisova Bucha parts of Bucha, and especially on Yablunska and Vokzalna streets. Fedoruk said that at least 280 individuals from the city had to be buried in mass graves. Local residents had to bury another 57 bodies in another mass grave."

"On 24 March, Ukraine's human rights ombudsman said that over 402,000 Ukrainians had been forcefully taken to Russia, including about 84,000 children. Russian authorities said that more than 384,000 people, including over 80,000 children, had been evacuated to Russia from Ukraine"

"Evacuees from Mariupol raised concerns about the treatment of fellow evacuees by Russian troops at a Russian filtration camp that reportedly housed civilians until they were evacuated. Ukrainian officials have called similar camps "modern-day concentration". Refugees reported torture and killings at filtration camps, especially in Mariupol This included beatings, electrocution and suffocation with plastic bags over the heads."

"Following the liberation of the area, it was discovered that over 200 civilians had been murdered by the Russian occupying forces in the territory of the Makariv settlement hromada. This often included cases of torture, killing the elderly, and shooting people in the head with their hands tied behind their backs."

"Ukrainian investigators said 447 bodies were found: 414 of them civilians (215 men, 194 women, 5 children), 22 soldiers, and 11 bodies whose gender had not yet been determined as of 23 September. While some casualties were caused by artillery fire and lack of healthcare,[most showed signs of violent death and 30 of torture and summary execution, including ropes around their necks, bound hands, broken limbs and genital amputation."

"On 30 September, a convoy of six civilian cars and a van on the outskirts of the village of Kurylivka (at that time in the so-called "gray zone" between Kupiansk and Svatove) was discovered by Ukrainian forces, with around 24 people killed, including a pregnant woman and 13 children."

"As of 26 March 2022, the UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine verified 74 attacks on medical facilities, 61 of them in Government-controlled territory (e.g. air strikes on hospitals in Izium, Mariupol, Ovruch, Volnovakha and Vuhledar), nine occurring in territory controlled by Russian affiliated armed groups, and four in contested settlements. Six perinatal centres, maternity hospitals, and ten children's hospitals had been hit, resulting in the complete destruction of two children's hospitals and one perinatal hospital."

"On 30 March 2022, the World Health Organization (WHO) reported that there had been 82 verified Russian attacks on medical care in Ukraine – including attacks on healthcare facilities, patients, and healthcare workers – since 24 February. WHO estimated at least 72 were killed and 43 injured in these attacks. By 8 April, WHO confirmed 91 attacks."

"As of 30 May 2023, WHO has verified 1,004 attacks on medical facilities in Ukraine since the beginning of the Russian invasion, resulting in at least 101 deaths among health workers and patients, and many injuries. The number of attacks verified by WHO is the highest it has ever recorded in a humanitarian emergency. By 21 December 2023, the number of attacks on health care had risen to 1,422, as reported by the WHO Surveillance System for Attacks on Health Care (SSA) tool."

"On 8 July 2024, a daytime Russian missile attack hit Okhmatdyt hospital, Ukraine's largest children's hospital. Ihor Klymenko, the interior minister, said five people had been confirmed dead in the attack and at least four more had been injured. A later report stated another child had died after being evacuated, and that ten children were injured in the attack."

"On 25 March Reporters Without Borders stated that Russian forces had threatened, kidnapped, detained and tortured several Ukrainian journalists in the occupied territories."

""In April Human Rights Watch visited 17 villages in Kyiv Oblast and Chernihiv Oblast that had been under Russian occupation from late February through March 2022. The human rights organisation investigated 22 summary executions, 9 unlawful killings, 6 enforced disappearances, and 7 cases of torture. Witnesses reported that Russian soldiers beat detainees, used electric shocks, and carried out mock executions to coerce them to provide information. Twenty-one civilians described unlawful confinement in inhuman and degrading conditions."

"An investigation by the BBC gathered evidence of torture, which in addition to beatings also included electrocution and burns on people's hands and feet. A doctor who treated victims of torture in the region reported: "Some of the worst were burn marks on genitals, a gunshot wound to the head of a girl who was raped, and burns from iron on a patient's back and stomach. The patient told me two wires from a car battery were attached to his groin and he was told to stand on a wet rag". In addition to the BBC, the Human Rights Watch UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine has reported on torture and "disappearances" carried out by Russian occupation forces in the region. One resident stated: "In Kherson, now people go missing all the time (...) there is a war going on, only this part is without bombs."

"On 22 July Human Rights Watch published a report documenting 42 cases of torture, unlawful detention and enforced disappearance of civilians in the Russian-occupied areas of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia oblasts. Witnesses described torture through prolonged beatings and electric shocks causing injuries including broken bones, broken teeth, severe burns, concussions, cuts and bruises. They also described being kept blindfolded and handcuffed for the entire duration of the detention, and being released only after having signed statements or recorded videos in which they pledge to cooperate or urge others to cooperate with the Russian forces.[177] Ukrainian officials estimated that at least 600 people had been forcibly disappeared in the Kherson Oblast since the Russian invasion"

"In mid-April 2022 The Independent obtained two testimonies of survivors of a Russian torture chamber in Trostianets, Sumy Oblast. According to the witnesses, at least eight civilians were held in a basement of a train station, where they were tortured, starved, subject to mock executions, forced to sit in their own excrement, electrocuted, stripped, and threatened with rape and genital mutilation. At least one prisoner was beaten to death by Russian guards who told the prisoners "All Ukrainians must die". Two were still missing at the time of the report. One prisoner was given electric shocks to his head until he begged the Russian soldiers to kill him. Numerous bodies, mutilated to the point where they were unrecognizable, were discovered by investigators in the area around the town"

"In Izium, journalists for the Associated Press found ten torture sites. An investigation found that both Ukrainian civilians and POWs were "routinely" subject to torture. At least eight men were killed while under torture."

"Between late September and early October, Human Rights Watch interviewed over 100 residents of Izium. Almost all of them reported having family members or friends who had been tortured, and fifteen people said they had been tortured themselves; survivors described torture by administration of electric shocks, waterboarding, severe beatings, threats with firearms and being forced to hold stress positions for long periods. Residents stated that the Russians targeted specific individuals and that they already had lists of those locals who were in the military, the families of military people, or the people who were veterans of the war in Donbas. They also said that in selecting victims they would terrorize the townspeople by publicly strip searching them."

"In March 2022, the UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine stressed the heightened risks of sexual violence and the risk of under-reporting by victims in the country. At the beginning of June, the Monitoring Mission received reports of 124 episodes of conflict-related sexual violence committed against women, girls, men and boys in various Ukrainian cities and regions. The alleged perpetrators were from the ranks of Russian and pro-Russian separatist armed forces in 89 cases and from civilians or unidentified individuals in territory controlled by Russian armed forces in 2 cases."

people say I dont criticize Putin so I wanted to be clear

What's free about russia china and iran?

This is Russian imperialism in all its genuine glory.

Not essays ghostwritten for Putin, not nationalist dreams of irrendentism, not rejection of western values, not a fight against NATO, not a beef with liberalism, not upholding traditional norms, not defending their borders, not fighting for values values and certainly not feeble intellectual excuses to rationalize it all away with realpolitik and talk about strategic gains.

It's just theft, abuse and murder, justified by the nationality of the victims and made possible by a totalitarian regime.

Arguing that this should be placated by the sacrifice of Ukraine and let loose is weak-willed idiocy.

Yeah he is a free market capitalist. It's been interesting to see how Russia has been viewed over time. It started off in the 80s as the authoritarian enemy of freedom in a propaganda framework where freedom was conflated with market freedom.

Then the Soviet Union fell apart but so did our excuse for massive defense spending, causing something of an internal crisis for us.

Then we were like yay let's welcome the Russians into the international capitalist system by applying all of our economic theory which we never actually apply to ourselves. We sent advisors with a privatization regime which saw the rise of oligarchs who grabbed control of previously state owned resources. Russia was a wasteland of misery for some time.

Then Putin somehow got the oligarchs under control using old school intelligence statecraft he learned in the KGB. The West liked him because he had Western values.

Then when Obama was debating Mitt Romney in 2011 Romney identified Russia as a threat and Obama mocked him "the 80s called it wants its foreign policy back" and everyone was walking in circles in their living rooms screaming OWNED! OWNED!

Then, at some point, there must have been some awakening in the deep state, sometime around when the war on terror was losing some steam, where these creeps were like "Wait we didn't fight the Russians in the cold war for decades just to create an economic competitor, did we? did we do that? We shall not have done that"

Then our military-industrial complex, like a homing missile looking for a target, rediscovered Russia. We saw Russia getting too close to Europe, selling it energy and building relationships, and we went to work to sever Russia from Europe and creating a pretext to keep that defense spending at its insanely high levels.

This is why.

tbh, I may have overestimatd Putin and Russia. thats pretty mild compared to the atrocities and theft perpetrated by the West in the last 20 years. or even last year and a half.

I kinda disagree that the West ever liked Russia. they always have had their eyes on the resources. the West and Capitalism are inherently expansionist and rapacious. but I do agree that Putin pissed them off to no end by trying to keep more of the Russian resources.

Hmm
At present I think vic
Maybe possibly
Aligns with
Satan, currently. Certainly his representatives on Earth anyway.

haha

I also like
Morons
Are
Governing
America

I don;t think you got the (rare) irony of victor's post.
Nice self own there

I'm sure there were those in the deep state who think they are the wolves guarding us sheep who will always see every other country as a threat, and one which we have such a history with as an immediate threat. However, the propaganda model was so filled out that there had to be a big show of rapprochement after the fall of the Soviet gov. There was much aid given. There was diplomatic outreach. There was sympathetic news coverage.

Sure, many people thought that Russia not being communist meant we could invade it with McDonalds franchises. Was anyone under the illusion it could be turned into a client state like Saudi Arabia? I'm sure there were those that deluded, but I doubt that thinking ruled at state. No matter what the program for Russia was, they commanded more respect than if they were Arabs.