LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

by LeoTrollstoy k

Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.

It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.

Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...



The thread that will go on for years..........












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31 May 2013 at 02:31 PM
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by fidstar-poker k

Wow numbers are terrible for Kobe.

Looked into the 2004 Finals some more. On/offs - Kobe on -52, Kobe off +7

He had the highest usage on a team with Shaq (who was shooting 63% for the series, while Kobe was shooting 38%).

This is inexcusable for a player in his prime.

You're right, this is an easy decision.

Kobe probably still top 20 though (just). Back in the group of Malone/Barley etc.

Kobe is better than lebron because his skillset doesn't impose spot-up roles that reduce everyone's assists and craters teammates... This is the achilles heel of Lebron's game that makes him worse than numerous guys.

Lebron's long list of bad fits and inability to grow or elevate teammates is proof of his inferior skillset, which is confirmed by the results of Kobe winning with far less help (a 2nd option that was worse than Lebron's 3rd options).

Furthermore, we know that Lebron has that toxic low-assisted skillset of below 40% assisted rate that cannot be the 1st option for the best basketball, while Kobe's skillset qualifies and allowed him to get much closer to dynasties than Lebron.. Kobe also outplayed lebron against the exact same playoff opponents in 08', 09', 10', and 11'.


by fidstar-poker k

lol Warriors don't play the Triangle. They have aspects of the Triangle in their offense. If anything it's more like the Spurs motion offense. But in reality it's based on the gravity of Steph Curry (hence why it typically falls to pieces when he's on the bench).

But being that you don't watch any games (and I've seen every warriors game since Kerr became coach) you would have nfi.

The Warriors and Spurs ran a hybrid triangle and every team in the league copied them, which is why league-wide assists increased from 2018 onwards and ended the decline that had occurred previously.

So Lebron and every player in today's game has access to the triangle and even more advanced systems, yet only highly-assisted 1st options produced the best basketball, while low-assisted ball-dominators are 0 for 12 and produce much lower average ranking in team assists.

So you've been saying that "lebron didn't have the triangle", but he did and the entire league uses hybrid versions of it - he simply stinks at ball movement, just like all low-assisted 1st options, so they can't produce the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions), or great chemistry, or high-assist teams (low average ranking).

Btw, even though the 40% career average or prime ranges of 40-60% totally work to make the case, we don't have to use numbers at all - we can eye test this thing and see that ball-dominators never had a dynasty or dominant champion (the best basketball)... Luka, Lillard, Lebron, Trae, Tim Hardaway, Iverson - you name it - none of these ball-dominators produced the best basketball, while the best bigs or jumpshooters did.


by fallguy k

Kobe is better than lebron because his skillset doesn't impose spot-up roles that reduce everyone's assists and craters teammates... This is the achilles heel of Lebron's game that makes him worse than numerous guys.

Lebron's long list of bad fits and inability to grow or elevate teammates is proof of his inferior skillset, which is confirmed by the results of Kobe winning with far less help (a 2nd option that was worse than Lebron's 3rd options).

Furthermore, we know that Lebron has that toxic lo

This is all false. LeBron has had an assisted fg% greater than 40% 9 times in his career, which proves he has the skill set and is capable of achieving this number in the appropriate scheme. Furthermore, you got the 40% number from data dredging, so it’s a false argument at its core anyway.

Also LeBron is a much better playmaker. This isn’t “imposing spot up roles” as you are oddly framing it because you don’t know ball. This is putting players in the best positions to score. Which is what assists are. This is a good thing, which you would intuitively understand if you actually played organized ball before.


This easily takes care of all of fallguy’s arguments. I think it’s time for him to lean more into full trolling. That’s at least somewhat amusing and less embarrassing for him.



by Matt R. k

Lebron has had an assisted fg% greater than 40% 9 times in his career, which proves he has the skill set and is capable of achieving this number in the appropriate scheme.

His career average is 38%, so that's below the threshold for producing the best basketball - this is the 1st way to disqualify him.

And his prime range is only 29-41%, which is below the required prime range of 40-60% - this is the 2nd way to disqualify him.

And the eye test says that no ball-dominators have ever produced the best basketball - this is the 3rd way to disqualify him.

by Matt R. k

Also LeBron is a much better playmaker. This isn’t “imposing spot up roles”

Lebron cratered all his teammates' assists and increased their assisted rate, so it's statistical fact that he imposes spot-up roles upon teammates.

It's because he has a high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles - it obviously reduces teammates' assist opportunity if the top bucket-getter is largely unassisted...

ALL high-scorers that have low assisted rates (ball-dominators) have this affliction of lowering teammates' assists, which prevents a high average ranking in team assists.

by Matt R. k

This is putting players in the best positions to score.

Teammates see lower PPG, APG and can't grow because Lebron reduces them to spot-up role.. This is statistical fact.

so you're easily wrong on everything.


Of all the possible arguments one could use to argue Jordan over LeBron, the 40% assisted rate criteria has been the absolute worst argument and thoroughly debunked in this thread.

fallguy, stick to 6>4 since that is a much much much better argument than 40% which has been proven absolutely false in this thread by Matt R and fiddstar.


by Tien k

Of all the possible arguments one could use to argue Jordan over LeBron, the 40% assisted rate criteria has been the absolute worst argument and thoroughly debunked in this thread.

fallguy, stick to 6>4 since that is a much much much better argument than 40% which has been proven absolutely false in this thread by Matt R and fiddstar.

You haven't read the posts - the only people that have read the posts and know that I'm right are Fidstar and Matt - they've failed at poking any holes and actually helped vet the following impenetrable doctrine that solved and exposed the fake debate once and for all:

1st options with a career assisted rate above 40% (jumpshooters or bigs) were 1st option for 12 of 12 dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball).. Otoh, 1st options with a career assisted rate below 40% (ball-dominators) were never 1st option for the best basketball (0 for 12).

Since the best jumpshooters and bigs produce the best basketball, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, which means the first ball-dominators appear in the all-time rankings BEHIND the best bigs and jumpshooters.. The full rankings are MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar - the 2nd thru 10th spots are more interchangeable and subjective, but it's set in stone that MJ is #1 and ball-dominators are no higher than 11th, based on the historical record that ball-dominators are never the 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions)..

The issue is that low-assisted 1st options have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement, while highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has.. This is statistical fact.


by fallguy k

Lebron's career assisted rate is 38%, so that's below the threshold for producing the best basketball - this is the 1st way to disqualify him.

And his prime range is only 29-41%, which is below the required prime range of 40-60% - this is the 2nd way to disqualify him.

And the eye test says that no ball-dominators have ever produced the best basketball - this is the 3rd way to disqualify him.

by fallguy k

Lebron cratered all his teammates' assists (playmaking) and increased their assisted rate (play-finishing), so it's statistical fact that he imposes spot-up roles upon teammates.

It's because he has a high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles - it obviously reduces teammates' assist opportunity if the top bucket-getter is largely unassisted...

ALL high-scorers that have low assisted rates (ball-dominators) have this affliction of lowering teammates' a

by fallguy k

Teammates see lower PPG, APG and can't grow because Lebron reduces them to spot-up role.. This is statistical fact.

by fallguy k

Kobe is better than lebron because his skillset doesn't impose spot-up roles that reduce everyone's assists and craters teammates... This is the achilles heel of Lebron's game that makes him worse than numerous guys.

Lebron's long list of bad fits and inability to grow or elevate teammates is proof of his inferior skillset, which is confirmed by the results of Kobe winning with far less help (a 2nd option that was worse than Lebron's 3rd options).

Furthermore, we know that Lebron has that toxic lo



Swap Prime Kobe for Lebron in 2016 and they do NOT beat the 73-9 Warriors.

That's the ultimate litmus test to show that LeBron is clearly superior to Kobe.


by All-inMcLovin k

Swap Prime Kobe for Lebron in 2016 and they do NOT beat the 73-9 Warriors.

That's the ultimate litmus test to show that LeBron is clearly superior to Kobe.

Imagine if Pippen outplayed Shaq in a series.. It's impossible to lose if your sidekick outplays the league MVP - this is unprecedented help and the Cavs were also preseason favorites because they had 3 franchise players compared to 1 for every other team.

But despite this favored talent and unprecedented help, lebron STILL almost lost because he averaged 24 and 6 TO's to get a 1-3 deficit - Kobe never averaged 6 TO's, so he would never be down in that series...

You guys always praise Lebron for "closeout" games but what about choking the first 4 games to get deficits in the 13' or 16' Finals that required teammate bailout???..

So Lebron is a historic fraud and nowhere near Kobe... Kobe never had a 3rd option or multiple franchise players as teammates, so he would've had the best team like the preseason odds expected.. Why can't Lebron win 70 with Kyrie and Love when Curry is winning 70 with Klay?? ...

Lebron's skillset simply employs a bad brand of ball that underachieves favored rosters, such as the most losses ever with preseason favorites or Finals teams, and bevies of losses with all-star teammates, homecourt, and 1 or 2 seeds - this is objectively below the goat standard.


If LaBron is so bad why is he 12th on your all-time list and not like 100th or 1000th?

Seems odds a guy with 0 real rings (teamed up with 2 top-4 in PER, bailed out by Ray Allen, unprecedented help from Irving and also terrible in first 4 games, out-played by AD and also the bubble which means it doesn't count anyway) is top 12


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Thread Cliffs

The "best basketball" can be defined as dominant champions that averaged 1 loss per round or less (4 losses max), or dynasties that mostly won for a material stretch of 5+ years (i.e. 3 in 5 years).

Accordingly, since possession-tracking began in 1997, 1st options with a career assisted rate above 40% (jumpshooters or bigs) were 1st option for 12 of 12 dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball).. Otoh, 1st options with a career assisted rate below 40% (ball-dominators) were never 1st option for the best basketball (0 for 12).

Since the best jumpshooters and bigs produce the best basketball, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, which means the first ball-dominators appear in the all-time rankings BEHIND the best bigs and jumpshooters.. The full rankings are MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar - the 2nd thru 10th spots are more interchangeable and subjective, but it's set in stone that MJ is #1 and ball-dominators are no higher than 11th, based on the historical record that ball-dominators are never the 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions)..

The issue is that low-assisted 1st options have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement, while highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has.. This is statistical fact (that highly-assisted 1st options produce MUCH higher-assist teams).


by Bank k

If LaBron is so bad why is he 12th on your all-time list and not like 100th or 1000th?

Raw talent still matters and is a primary factor in evaluating players.

Lebron is better than Ray Allen and various jumpshooters based on talent alone... However, the most talented jumpshooters ever like MJ or Curry compare better to Lebron talent-wise, so their superior skills (healthy assisted rates) can take over and win more with less.

That's why I say the BEST jumpshooters are better than the best ball-dominators - I'm trying to cancel out the talent factor so we can just look at skill (i.e. which guy is elite both on-ball and off-ball, thereby fitting with all teammates and systems)..

And that's why I did the analysis showing that low-assisted 1st options like Lebron (ball-dominators) never produced the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions), so they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that did (the best bigs and jumpshooters).. See the thread cliffs in previous post.

Btw, the great thing about the doctrine is that SGA or Lebron can win chips as ball-dominators, but as long as they don't produce the BEST basketball (dominant champion or dynasty), then everything still stands (that ball-dominators don't produce the best basketball).

by Bank k

Seems odds a guy with 0 real rings (teamed up with 2 top-4 in PER, bailed out by Ray Allen, unprecedented help from Irving and also terrible in first 4 games, out-played by AD and also the bubble which means it doesn't count anyway) is top 12

Great summary - you're getting it (the truth).

And let's not forget beating babies for his first title - Durant was the same age that got Lebron a pass in the 07' Finals..

And also the "decision" to stack the deck obtained unprecedented help such as 6 straight preseason favorites and a sidekick to outplay the league MVP.. This unprecedented advantage required another unprecedented advantage to overcome it (KD's Warriors ) - the media's fraud was pretending it wasn't something that needed to be overcome (i.e. KD's rings don't count)...

The "decision" basically ruined KD's career by stealing KD's organic chip in 2012 that would've made his career unfold differently - maybe he's in the goat debate instead... And then then the "decision" also forced KD to do something to overcome the "decision" (join Warriors).


FG - Honest question - How do you feel that you've now had almost 2k posts (on just this account) and you haven't been able to convince people on one thing in your favour. If anything the information you have provided has made people think the opposite of what you have written?

I also assume this happens to you on every forum you have ever done this on.

Does this not make you think?



by fidstar-poker k

FG - Honest question - How do you feel that you've now had almost 2k posts (on just this account) and you haven't been able to convince people on one thing in your favour. If anything the information you have provided has made people think the opposite of what you have written?

I also assume this happens to you on every forum you have ever done this on.

Does this not make you think?

You sound insecure about all this and your unsteadiness is because you cannot answer the question: "when has a primary ball-handler been the 1st option for a dynasty or dominant champion?"

That's what I thought... 0 for 12... I win.

Notice how this argument doesn't need assisted rate or the 40% cut-off because we can just use bball 101 to know what a primary ballhandler is, and then the historical record shows that this skillset never produced the best basketball as 1st option (dynasty or dominant champion).

So I appreciate your help in vetting the data and due diligence, but now that your job is done and you've failed to find any more holes, don't get mad and bitter, smh.. It's a bad look.

And of course, it's good that we statistically-defined "primary ball-handler" for the layman - all primary ball-handlers have a career assisted rate below 40% and 20-40% in their prime, while everyone above 40% isn't a primary ball-handler... The 12 instances of the best basketball required non-primary-ballhandlers as 1st option that were either elite jumpshooters or big men.. Since the best jumpshooters and bigs produced the best basketball, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, which easily puts guys like Lebron and Oscar out of the top 10 for anyone that doesn't want them to be there.. Again, thanks for vetting this doctrine, but there's no need to get snarky now that your job is done... You too Matt.


The following posts will show the Appendices and Final Conclusions


.
Appendix A

TEAM ASSIST RANKINGS FOR ALL PLAYERS WITH HIGH VOLUME OF UNASSISTED BUCKETS (OVER 25 PPG AND LESS THAN 40% ASSISTED RATE), SINCE 1997:

2002 Kobe Bryant................ 9th in team assists
2003 Tracy McGrady............ 21st in team assists
2005 Tracy McGrady............ 16th in team assists
2006 Dwayne Wade............. 17th in team assists
2007 Dwayne Wade............. 18th in team assists
2008 Dwayne Wade............. 24th in team assists
2009 Dwayne Wade............. 18th in team assists
2010 Dwayne Wade............. 28th in team assists
2011 Dwayne Wade............. 26th in team assists
2005 Gilbert Arenas............. 28th in team assists
2006 Gilbert Arenas............. 25th in team assists
2007 Gilbert Arenas............. 23rd in team assists
2005 Kobe Bryant................ 22nd in team assists
2009 Kobe Bryant................ 2nd in team assists
2004 Allen Iverson............... 23rd in team assists
2005 Allen Iverson............... 21st in team assists
2006 Allen Iverson............... 18th in team assists
2007 Allen Iverson............... 21st in team assists
2008 Allen Iverson............... 3rd in team assists
2000 Grant Hill..................... 23rd in team assists
2010 Monta Ellis.................. 5th in team assists
2011 Derrick Rose................ 9th in team assists
2013 Carmelo....................... 30th in team assists
2014 Carmelo....................... 28th in team assists
2015 Westbrook................... 25th in team assists
2017 Westbrook................... 25th in team assists
2018 Westbrook................... 28th in team assists
2020 Westbrook................... 29th in team assists
2013 Harden......................... 6th in team assists
2014 Harden......................... 18th in team assists
2015 Harden.......................... 9th in team assists
2016 Harden.......................... 16th in team assists
2017 Harden.......................... 3rd in team assists
2018 Harden.......................... 26th in team assists
2019 Harden.......................... 28th in team assists
2020 Harden.......................... 29th in team assists
2016 Lillard............................ 21st in team assists
2017 Lillard............................ 23rd in team assists
2018 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2019 Lillard............................ 25th in team assists
2020 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2021 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2023 Lillard............................ 22nd in team assists
2017 Isiaih Thomas.............. 4th in team assists
2017 Demar Derozan........... 30th in team assists
2019 Kemba Walker.............. 24th in team assists
2020 Luka Doncic.................. 14th in team assists
2021 Luka Doncic.................. 26th in team assists
2022 Luka Doncic.................. 25th in team assists
2023 Luka Doncic.................. 28th in team assists
2024 Luka Doncic.................. 19th in team assists
2025 Luka Doncic.................. 18th in team assists
2020 Trae Young................... 17th in team assists
2021 Trae Young................... 19th in team assists
2022 Trae Young................... 15th in team assists
2023 Trae Young................... 18th in team assists
2024 Trae Young................... 16th in team assists
2017 Kyrie Irving................... 13th in team assists
2020 Kyrie Irving................... 15th in team assists
2021 Kyrie Irving................... 7th in team assists
2022 Kyrie Irving................... 10th in team assists
2023 Kyrie Irving................... 28th in team assists
2024 Kyrie Irving................... 19th in team assists
2021 Donovan Mitchell........ 23rd in team assists
2022 Donovan Mitchell........ 27th in team assists
2023 Donovan Mitchell........ 19th in team assists
2024 Donovan Mitchell........ 8th in team assists
2021 D'Aaron Fox.................. 12th in team assists
2023 D'Aaron Fox...................3rd in team assists
2024 D'Aaron Fox.................. 7th in team assists
2025 D'Aaron Fox.................. 15th in team assists
2022 Ja Morant...................... 6th in team assists
2023 Ja Morant...................... 9th in team assists
2024 Ja Morant...................... 27th in team assists
2023 Shai-Gilgeous............... 21st in team assists
2024 Shai-Gilgeous............... 11th in team assists
2025 Shai-Gilgeous............... 14th in team assists
2024 Jalen Brunson.............. 29th in team assists
2025 Jalen Brunson.............. 9th in team assists*
2024 Anthony Edwards........ 15th in team assists
2006 Lebron.......................... 24th in team assists
2007 Lebron.......................... 15th in team assists
2008 Lebron.......................... 25th in team assists
2009 Lebron.......................... 20th in team assists
2010 Lebron.......................... 6th in team assists
2011 Lebron.......................... 26th in team assists
2012 Lebron.......................... 21st in team assists
2015 Lebron.......................... 10th in team assists
2016 Lebron.......................... 13th in team assists
2017 Lebron.......................... 13th in team assists
2018 Lebron.......................... 12th in team assists
2019 Lebron.......................... 11th in team assists
2020 Lebron.......................... 10th in team assists
2021 Lebron.......................... 15th in team assists
2022 Lebron.......................... 17th in team assists

^^^^ 18.3 is the average team assist ranking for high-scoring primary ballhandlers, aka "ball-dominators", who have high volume of unassisted buckets (25+ ppg and less than 40% assisted rate).

TEAM ASSIST RANKINGS FOR EVERY 25 PPG SCORER WITH 50% OR MORE ASSISTED RATE, SINCE 1997:

1997 Jordan...................... 2nd in team assists
1997 Mitch Richmond..... 14th in team assists
1997 Glen Rice.................. 4th in team assists
1997 Shaq......................... 11th in team assists
1997 Malone..................... 1st in team assists
1998 Jordan....................... 7th in team assists
1998 Shaq......................... 4th in team assists
1998 Malone..................... 2nd in team assists
1999 Shaq.......................... 7th in team assists
2000 Shaq.......................... 10th in team assists
2000 Vince Carter.............. 6th in team assists
2000 Allen Iverson............ 17th in team assists
2000 Malone...................... 3rd in team assists
2001 Shaq.......................... 9th in team assists
2001 Jerry Stackhouse...... 24th in team assists
2001 Vince Carter.............. 3rd in team assists
2001 Webber...................... 10th in team assists
2001 Pierce........................ 19th in team assists
2002 Shaq.......................... 9th in team assists
2002 Duncan..................... 27th in team assists
2002 Pierce........................ 20th in team assists
2003 Shaq......................... 5th in team assists
2003 Dirk........................... 9th in team assists
2005 Stoudamire.............. 3rd in team assists
2005 Dirk........................... 26th in team assists
2006 Dirk........................... 29th in team assists
2006 Ray Allen.................. 15th in team assists
2006 Michael Redd........... 8th in team assists
2006 Carmelo.................... 3rd in team assists
2007 Pierce........................ 25th in team assists
2007 Carmelo................... 5th in team assists
2007 Michael Redd........... 12th in team assists
2007 Yao Ming................... 16th in team assists
2007 Vince Carter.............. 3rd in team assists
2008 Carmelo................... 3rd in team assists
2008 Stoudamire............... 1st in team assists
2009 Durant...................... 20th in team assists
2009 Danny Granger....... . 9th in team assists
2009 Dirk............................ 8th in team assists
2010 Dirk............................ 3rd in team assists
2010 Monta Ellis................ 5th in team assists
2010 Durant....................... 23rd in team assists
2011 Stoudamire............... 15th in team assists
2011 Durant....................... 24th in team assists
2012 Kevin Love................. 24th in team assists
2013 Durant....................... 21st in team assists
2014 Kevin Love................. 5th in team assists
2015 Durant........................ 25th in team assists
2016 Durant........................ 10th in team assists
2016 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2016 Cousins....................... 4th in team assists
2017 Cousins....................... 16th in team assists
2017 AD................................ 12th in team assists
2017 Durant......................... 1st in team assists
2017 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2017 Karl Anthony.............. 9th in team assists
2018 Cousins....................... 3rd in team assists
2018 AD................................ 3rd in team assists
2018 Durant........................ 1st in team assists
2018 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2019 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2019 AD................................ 3rd in team assists
2019 Embiid......................... 4th in team assists
2019 Bradley Beal............... 6th in team assists
2020 AD................................ 10th in team assists
2020 Karl-Anthony.............. 20th in team assists
2021 Jokic............................. 5th in team assists
2021 Durant......................... 7th in team assists
2021 Curry............................ 1st in team assists
2021 Embiid......................... 22nd in team assists
2021 Zion............................. 10th in team assists
2022 Jokic............................. 3rd in team assists
2022 Durant......................... 10th in team assists
2022 Curry............................ 5th in team assists
2022 Embiid......................... 21st in team assists
2023 Julius Randle............... 28th in team assists
2023 Durant......................... 13th in team assists
2023 Curry............................ 1st in team assists
2023 Embiid......................... 16th in team assists
2023 Zion............................. 11th in team assists
2023 Jaylen Brown............. 7th in team assists
2023 Markkenan................ 10th in team assists
2023 AD................................ 15th in team assists
2024 Jokic............................. 3rd in team assists
2024 Durant......................... 12th in team assists
2024 Curry............................ 4th in team assists
2024 Embiid......................... 24th in team assists

10.2 average for high-scorers that have high assisted rates (above 50%), and 18.3 average for high-scorers with low-assisted rates (below 40%).

APPENDIX B

"DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) SINCE 1997 AND THE ASSISTED RATE OF 1ST OPTION IN REGULAR SEASON, PLAYOFFS:

1. 2017 Warriors (16-1)......... DURANT 61.7, 64.4

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1)............. SHAQ 64.5, 64.4

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)............... DUNCAN 60.5, 63.9

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)............. TATUM 40.0, 46.5

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).......... JOKIC 62.7, 58.6

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)............... DUNCAN 46.1, 48.3

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).............. SHAQ 61.2, 59.1

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4).................. JORDAN 53.0, 44.9

^^^^^ nothing below 40% assisted rate for the 1st options of 8 of 8 dominant champions (above), and 4 of 4 dynasties as well (Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Curry)

FINAL CONCLUSIONS

If a "dominant champion" is defined as a team that averaged 1 loss per round or less (4 losses max), and a dynasty is a franchise that mostly won over a material stretch of 5+ years (i.e. 3 in 5), then primary ball-handlers have never been the 1st option for a dynasty or dominant champion (the best basketball), while elite jumpshooters or bigs were the 1st option 12 of 12 times.

From a statistical standpoint, all primary ball-handlers have a career assisted rate below 40% and 20-40% in their prime... Meanwhile, everyone above 40% isn't a primary ball-handler, and this includes the best jumpshooters and bigs that were required for 12 of 12 dynasties or dominant champions (Appendix A).. Since the best jumpshooters and bigs produced the best basketball 100% of the time that it occurred, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, which easily puts guys like Lebron and Oscar out of the top 10 for anyone that doesn't want them to be there.

The issue is that when primary ball-handlers are high-scoring 1st options, they have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement, while highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has (Appendix B).


.
Appendix A

TEAM ASSIST RANKINGS FOR ALL PLAYERS WITH HIGH VOLUME OF UNASSISTED BUCKETS (OVER 25 PPG AND LESS THAN 40% ASSISTED RATE), SINCE 1997:

2002 Kobe Bryant................ 9th in team assists
2003 Tracy McGrady............ 21st in team assists
2005 Tracy McGrady............ 16th in team assists
2006 Dwayne Wade............. 17th in team assists
2007 Dwayne Wade............. 18th in team assists
2008 Dwayne Wade............. 24th in team assists
2009 Dwayne Wade............. 18th in team assists
2010 Dwayne Wade............. 28th in team assists
2011 Dwayne Wade............. 26th in team assists
2005 Gilbert Arenas............. 28th in team assists
2006 Gilbert Arenas............. 25th in team assists
2007 Gilbert Arenas............. 23rd in team assists
2005 Kobe Bryant................ 22nd in team assists
2009 Kobe Bryant................ 2nd in team assists
2004 Allen Iverson............... 23rd in team assists
2005 Allen Iverson............... 21st in team assists
2006 Allen Iverson............... 18th in team assists
2007 Allen Iverson............... 21st in team assists
2008 Allen Iverson............... 3rd in team assists
2000 Grant Hill..................... 23rd in team assists
2010 Monta Ellis.................. 5th in team assists
2011 Derrick Rose................ 9th in team assists
2013 Carmelo....................... 30th in team assists
2014 Carmelo....................... 28th in team assists
2015 Westbrook................... 25th in team assists
2017 Westbrook................... 25th in team assists
2018 Westbrook................... 28th in team assists
2020 Westbrook................... 29th in team assists
2013 Harden......................... 6th in team assists
2014 Harden......................... 18th in team assists
2015 Harden.......................... 9th in team assists
2016 Harden.......................... 16th in team assists
2017 Harden.......................... 3rd in team assists
2018 Harden.......................... 26th in team assists
2019 Harden.......................... 28th in team assists
2020 Harden.......................... 29th in team assists
2016 Lillard............................ 21st in team assists
2017 Lillard............................ 23rd in team assists
2018 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2019 Lillard............................ 25th in team assists
2020 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2021 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2023 Lillard............................ 22nd in team assists
2017 Isiaih Thomas.............. 4th in team assists
2017 Demar Derozan........... 30th in team assists
2019 Kemba Walker.............. 24th in team assists
2020 Luka Doncic.................. 14th in team assists
2021 Luka Doncic.................. 26th in team assists
2022 Luka Doncic.................. 25th in team assists
2023 Luka Doncic.................. 28th in team assists
2024 Luka Doncic.................. 19th in team assists
2025 Luka Doncic.................. 18th in team assists
2020 Trae Young................... 17th in team assists
2021 Trae Young................... 19th in team assists
2022 Trae Young................... 15th in team assists
2023 Trae Young................... 18th in team assists
2024 Trae Young................... 16th in team assists
2017 Kyrie Irving................... 13th in team assists
2020 Kyrie Irving................... 15th in team assists
2021 Kyrie Irving................... 7th in team assists
2022 Kyrie Irving................... 10th in team assists
2023 Kyrie Irving................... 28th in team assists
2024 Kyrie Irving................... 19th in team assists
2021 Donovan Mitchell........ 23rd in team assists
2022 Donovan Mitchell........ 27th in team assists
2023 Donovan Mitchell........ 19th in team assists
2024 Donovan Mitchell........ 8th in team assists
2021 D'Aaron Fox.................. 12th in team assists
2023 D'Aaron Fox...................3rd in team assists
2024 D'Aaron Fox.................. 7th in team assists
2025 D'Aaron Fox.................. 15th in team assists
2022 Ja Morant...................... 6th in team assists
2023 Ja Morant...................... 9th in team assists
2024 Ja Morant...................... 27th in team assists
2023 Shai-Gilgeous............... 21st in team assists
2024 Shai-Gilgeous............... 11th in team assists
2025 Shai-Gilgeous............... 14th in team assists
2024 Jalen Brunson.............. 29th in team assists
2025 Jalen Brunson.............. 9th in team assists*
2024 Anthony Edwards........ 15th in team assists
2006 Lebron.......................... 24th in team assists
2007 Lebron.......................... 15th in team assists
2008 Lebron.......................... 25th in team assists
2009 Lebron.......................... 20th in team assists
2010 Lebron.......................... 6th in team assists
2011 Lebron.......................... 26th in team assists
2012 Lebron.......................... 21st in team assists
2015 Lebron.......................... 10th in team assists
2016 Lebron.......................... 13th in team assists
2017 Lebron.......................... 13th in team assists
2018 Lebron.......................... 12th in team assists
2019 Lebron.......................... 11th in team assists
2020 Lebron.......................... 10th in team assists
2021 Lebron.......................... 15th in team assists
2022 Lebron.......................... 17th in team assists

^^^^ 18.3 is the average team assist ranking for high-scoring primary ballhandlers, aka "ball-dominators", who have high volume of unassisted buckets (25+ ppg and less than 40% assisted rate).

TEAM ASSIST RANKINGS FOR EVERY 25 PPG SCORER WITH 50% OR MORE ASSISTED RATE, SINCE 1997:

1997 Jordan...................... 2nd in team assists
1997 Mitch Richmond..... 14th in team assists
1997 Glen Rice.................. 4th in team assists
1997 Shaq......................... 11th in team assists
1997 Malone..................... 1st in team assists
1998 Jordan....................... 7th in team assists
1998 Shaq......................... 4th in team assists
1998 Malone..................... 2nd in team assists
1999 Shaq.......................... 7th in team assists
2000 Shaq.......................... 10th in team assists
2000 Vince Carter.............. 6th in team assists
2000 Allen Iverson............ 17th in team assists
2000 Malone...................... 3rd in team assists
2001 Shaq.......................... 9th in team assists
2001 Jerry Stackhouse...... 24th in team assists
2001 Vince Carter.............. 3rd in team assists
2001 Webber...................... 10th in team assists
2001 Pierce........................ 19th in team assists
2002 Shaq.......................... 9th in team assists
2002 Duncan..................... 27th in team assists
2002 Pierce........................ 20th in team assists
2003 Shaq......................... 5th in team assists
2003 Dirk........................... 9th in team assists
2005 Stoudamire.............. 3rd in team assists
2005 Dirk........................... 26th in team assists
2006 Dirk........................... 29th in team assists
2006 Ray Allen.................. 15th in team assists
2006 Michael Redd........... 8th in team assists
2006 Carmelo.................... 3rd in team assists
2007 Pierce........................ 25th in team assists
2007 Carmelo................... 5th in team assists
2007 Michael Redd........... 12th in team assists
2007 Yao Ming................... 16th in team assists
2007 Vince Carter.............. 3rd in team assists
2008 Carmelo................... 3rd in team assists
2008 Stoudamire............... 1st in team assists
2009 Durant...................... 20th in team assists
2009 Danny Granger....... . 9th in team assists
2009 Dirk............................ 8th in team assists
2010 Dirk............................ 3rd in team assists
2010 Monta Ellis................ 5th in team assists
2010 Durant....................... 23rd in team assists
2011 Stoudamire............... 15th in team assists
2011 Durant....................... 24th in team assists
2012 Kevin Love................. 24th in team assists
2013 Durant....................... 21st in team assists
2014 Kevin Love................. 5th in team assists
2015 Durant........................ 25th in team assists
2016 Durant........................ 10th in team assists
2016 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2016 Cousins....................... 4th in team assists
2017 Cousins....................... 16th in team assists
2017 AD................................ 12th in team assists
2017 Durant......................... 1st in team assists
2017 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2017 Karl Anthony.............. 9th in team assists
2018 Cousins....................... 3rd in team assists
2018 AD................................ 3rd in team assists
2018 Durant........................ 1st in team assists
2018 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2019 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2019 AD................................ 3rd in team assists
2019 Embiid......................... 4th in team assists
2019 Bradley Beal............... 6th in team assists
2020 AD................................ 10th in team assists
2020 Karl-Anthony.............. 20th in team assists
2021 Jokic............................. 5th in team assists
2021 Durant......................... 7th in team assists
2021 Curry............................ 1st in team assists
2021 Embiid......................... 22nd in team assists
2021 Zion............................. 10th in team assists
2022 Jokic............................. 3rd in team assists
2022 Durant......................... 10th in team assists
2022 Curry............................ 5th in team assists
2022 Embiid......................... 21st in team assists
2023 Julius Randle............... 28th in team assists
2023 Durant......................... 13th in team assists
2023 Curry............................ 1st in team assists
2023 Embiid......................... 16th in team assists
2023 Zion............................. 11th in team assists
2023 Jaylen Brown............. 7th in team assists
2023 Markkenan................ 10th in team assists
2023 AD................................ 15th in team assists
2024 Jokic............................. 3rd in team assists
2024 Durant......................... 12th in team assists
2024 Curry............................ 4th in team assists
2024 Embiid......................... 24th in team assists

10.2 average for high-scorers that have high assisted rates (above 50%), and 18.3 average for high-scorers with low-assisted rates (below 40%).

APPENDIX B

"DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) SINCE 1997 AND THE ASSISTED RATE OF 1ST OPTION IN REGULAR SEASON, PLAYOFFS:

1. 2017 Warriors (16-1)......... DURANT 61.7, 64.4

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1)............. SHAQ 64.5, 64.4

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)............... DUNCAN 60.5, 63.9

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)............. TATUM 40.0, 46.5

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).......... JOKIC 62.7, 58.6

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)............... DUNCAN 46.1, 48.3

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).............. SHAQ 61.2, 59.1

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4).................. JORDAN 53.0, 44.9

^^^^^ nothing below 40% assisted rate for the 1st options of 8 of 8 dominant champions (above), and 4 of 4 dynasties as well (Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Curry)

FINAL CONCLUSIONS

If a "dominant champion" is defined as a team that averaged 1 loss per round or less (4 losses max), and a "dynasty" is a franchise that mostly won over a material stretch of 5+ years (i.e. 3 in 5), then primary ball-handlers have never been the 1st option for a dynasty or dominant champion (the best basketball), while elite jumpshooters or bigs were the 1st option 12 of 12 times.. Since the best jumpshooters and bigs produced the best basketball 100% of the time that it occurred, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, which easily puts guys like Lebron and Oscar out of the top 10 for anyone that doesn't want them to be there.

From a statistical standpoint, 99.9% of primary ball-handlers have a career assisted rate below 40% and 20-40% in their prime... Meanwhile, everyone above 40% isn't a primary ball-handler, and this includes the best jumpshooters and bigs that were required for 12 of 12 dynasties or dominant champions (Appendix B)..

The issue is that when primary ball-handlers are high-scoring 1st options, they have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement, while highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has (Appendix A).


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Thread Solved:

Lebron is inferior to Jordan because primary ball-handlers cannot be the 1st option for dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball).

The best basketball required 1st options that were jumpshooters or bigs 12 of 12 times since possession-tracking began in 1997.

Since the best jumpshooters and bigs produced the best basketball 100% of the time, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, which easily puts guys like Lebron and Oscar out of the top 10 for anyone that doesn't want them to be there - primary ball-handlers cannot be 1st option for the best basketball, so they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can.. The issue is that high-scoring primary ball-handlers like Luka, Lebron, Oscar, Westbrook and others have a high volume of unassisted buckets and a significant track record of weak chemistry, which produces weaker teams.


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KAT vs Pippen

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html]KAT Career[/url]................ 23.0... 11.0... 3.2... 24.0 PER... 0.189 WS/48... 4.5 BPM... 62.6 TS (above league average)
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game_stats]91-93' Pippen[/url]............ 19.1..... 7.5... 6.5... 20.4 PER... 0.168 WS/48... 5.3 BPM... 54.1 TS (below league average)

Jordan won 6 titles with a worse cast than Ant had, and it's because his IQ and teammate elevation was far superior to Ant's, due to Ant's high volume of unassisted buckets that don't involve teammates and weak maturity or leadership... Furthermore, Jordan combined his superior chemistry/IQ with far more dominance, aka far higher production rate across the board (PPG, Player Efficiency Rating, plus/minus, win shares, value-above-replacement, etc.).

But it isn't just Ant - Luka, SGA, and others are all jokes compared to MJ by virtue of being perennial losers with all-star teammates, while MJ was unbeatable the instant he got 1 all-star because his assisted game promoted great chemistry just like Curry's, Duncan's, and anyone that was 1st option for the best basketball (dynasty or dominant champion).


lol. Even you couldn't come up with a real reason so you deleted it.



by fallguy k

You sound insecure about all this and your unsteadiness is because you cannot answer the question: "when has a primary ball-handler been the 1st option for a dynasty or dominant champion?"

That's what I thought... 0 for 12... I win.

Notice how this argument doesn't need assisted rate or the 40% cut-off because we can just use bball 101 to know what a primary ballhandler is, and then the historical record shows that this skillset never produced the best basketball as 1st option (dynasty or dominan

Sounds like a non-answer. Basically like all your posts. You get a questions and answer it with something that is completely irrelevant.


Endless nonsense.

The fallguy posting experience.

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