Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
No you're just making stuff up, There was never a nation of Palestine which the nation of Israel invaded and took it to expand their already existing nation.
So what? It's still considered occupied by lol International Law.
The modern use of the term Palestinian seems to go back to about 1913 and modern Palestinian nationalism to the mid-30s.
It can't be all Israel. The Arabs at some point have to be good faith actors. Expecting Israel to act in good faith while the Arabs act horribly hasn't worked, and wont work.
Personally, I dont think this happens unless the incentive structure radically changes. Arab belligerence and bad behavior has to stop being rewarded. And for good or bad, Israel seems to accept the rest of the world is going to keep rewarding bad behavior, so it is up to Israel to punitively punish the Arabs on their own. Make the costs of attacking Israel so high they literally wont have the capabilities to do it anymore.
The modern use of the term Palestinian seems to go back to about 1913 and modern Palestinian nationalism to the mid-30s.
I would rephrase it as modern Palestinian "identity." There was no movement or conceptual framework to form a Palestinian nation state, unlike the European Zionists who were determined to form a European style nation state.
There still really isn't a strong focus to form a centralized nation state. This is something that westerners project. It is a very decentralized culture, dominated by large clans/familes that recently emigrated from places like Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Iraq.
Even Hamas itself is very decentralized and functions as clans that act more or less autonomously.
But they didn't have a right of conquest, they fought for independence and won. This included Palestinian Jews who had always lived there before European Jews arrived., regardless of their numbers.
This post and a few other recent ones are so important.
Jordan became Jordan in 1946 (post Brit, post Ottoman)
Iraq became Iraq in 1932 (post Brit, post Ottoman)
Kuwait was 1961 (still post Brit and Ottoman, right?)
Lebanon 1943 (France and Ottoman?)
And we can do this for so many of them. And what do you DO to become a country. It always varies a lot, but certainly it can look like:
1) Declare your intent. Have and declare your vision. Have a government. Have clearly defined borders. Have a permanent population.
2) Be recognized. I did not hurt that in the case of Israel, it wasn't just the USA that recognized their independence. The Soviets did too. So the #1 and #2 superpowers recognize you.
3) Work with the UN. In 1947 the UN voted on the LEGAL split of the Mandate. A Jewish part and an Arab part. The vote past.
4) Become a member of the UN. 1949 for Israel
5) Fight for your life, if you have to. Victory and statehood remains with the winner.
Know what the Palestinians did from this list to become a country? Nothing (well they did #5 and lost, which is how you don't become a country). Know what Israel did to become a country? All of that. All of the things.
The modern use of the term Palestinian seems to go back to about 1913 and modern Palestinian nationalism to the mid-30s.
The people you are referring too got the country called transjordan which is more than double the size of Israel
The people you are referring too got the country called transjordan which is more than double the size of Israel
I was just describing the term. Most of those people you're talking about are dead. Most of the people in the territories were born after 1967, let alone 1947.
The Netanyahu apologists complaining that Palestine hasn't sufficiently played by the UN's rules is so darkly comical.
The Netanyahu apologists complaining that Palestine hasn't sufficiently played by the UN's rules is so darkly comical.
There is no Palestine. But the Palestinians declared war and wanted all or nothing. They lost.
Not interested in either your argumentum ad hominem dribble or your sudden attached caveats. I'm going by what you say. Be more coherent in future if you don't want your arguments counter pointed.
It’s “drivel” 👍
Everyone demanding a sovereign Palestinian West Bank is kind of glossing over the fact it is a guarantee such a move would be used to launch devastating attack on Israel's large population centers.
Lets pretend you 100% know this would happen. Do you still think Israel should give the West Bank and just suck it up and accept at some point they will be attacked and their major cities will suffer tremendous damage and casualties?
The irony is that Hamas doesn't even pretend this isn't what is going to happen if Israel agrees to their terms. They explicitly state they are only interested in a 5 year "ceasefire" window to rebuild their offensive capabilities, before resuming the attack on Israel. And even a Hamas accepted "ceasefire" means autonomous militias (Hamas and otherwise) will keep attacking Israel.
The Netanyahu apologists complaining that Palestine hasn't sufficiently played by the UN's rules is so darkly comical.
Nobody is complaining
They went rogue and lost
I was just describing the term. Most of those people you're talking about are dead. Most of the people in the territories were born after 1967, let alone 1947.
Well I've never heard of refugee camps lasting 5 generations unless they were being used as pawns so i got confused
Well I've never heard of refugee camps lasting 5 generations unless they were being used as pawns so i got confused
They are being used as pawns! That doesn't mean that you kill them because they are weak.
I'm not in favor of having to kill anybody
They shouldn't have poked the bear
You are still more mad at Israel than hamas though
How do you sleep at night
I'm not in favor of having to kill anybody
They shouldn't have poked the bear
You are still more mad at Israel than hamas though
How do you sleep at night
Do you comprehend how a Jewish person would want Israel to be good?
There is no Palestine. But the Palestinians declared war and wanted all or nothing. They lost.
Oh cool, I feel better about the 34,000 people Israel has massacred then.
I don't feel bad about the militants included in that number
Well i do
But i do blame hamas for all of this
You make excuses for them
I guess it's a compliment. You expect better from jews i guess
Thank you
Israel is good
They do some not good things and can be criticized for them
They shouldn't be held to a different standard than anybody else though
I expect better of Jews. That is a bit supremacist I guess, but it's not that Jews have good-person genes, it's that I thought being good and compassionate was the lesson from all the oppression and killing, not "kill 'em all".
