Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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30514 Replies
Right. So that's when this genocide started? Which clearly is still ongoing as you've claimed a current genocide.
ME and Gazan Palestinian population has been steadily increasing since 1917. Ergo not a genocide, glad we got that sorted.
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
(a) https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/isr...
The Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics released a report Sunday marking the 76th anniversary of the Nakba (Great Catastrophe) indicating that since 1948, approximately 134,000 Palestinians and Arabs have been killed both inside and outside Palestine.
The bureau’s report details the grim statistics of death, detention, settlement construction and land confiscation in Palestine coinciding with the anniversary of May 15, 1948.
Since Oct. 7 alone, the start of the Israel-Hamas war, at least 35,034 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza, with 14,944 being children and 9,849 women.
(b) https://press.un.org/en/2024/gapal1467.d...
The Nakba of 1948 and today’s Nakba in Gaza are not two separate events, the Chair of the United Nations Palestinian Rights Committee told a special event at UN Headquarters in New York today, stressing the need for an immediate ceasefire in the Strip and to achieve Statehood for Palestinians.
“Today, we again commemorate the events of 1948 and subsequent years, which led to the dispossession and displacement of approximately 750,000 Palestinians from their ancestral lands,” said Cheikh Niang (Senegal), Chair of the United Nations Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People, as he opened a panel discussion titled “1948-2024: The Ongoing Palestinian Nakba”.
After the atrocities committed by Hamas and other militant groups on 7 October 2023, “the Israeli response was and continues to be disproportionate and indiscriminate,” he said, asserting that “breaches of norms by one group do not excuse breaches of international law and norms by another”. Between 1948 and 2024, Israel continued its illegal actions. “The Nakba, thus, is an ongoing process affecting the Palestinian people over generations.”
(c) https://www.btselem.org/publications/sum...
Over the last four years, Israel has demolished some 4,100 Palestinian homes in the Occupied Territories. About sixty percent of the demolitions were carried out in the framework of what Israel calls "clearing operations." Some twenty-five percent were destroyed because Israel claims they were built without permit. The remaining fifteen percent were demolished as a means to punish the families and neighbors of Palestinians suspected of involvement in carrying out attacks against Israelis. These punitive demolitions are the focus of this report.
Testimonies given to B'Tselem indicate that the harm suffered by families affects almost all aspects of life: disruption of the family unit, as some families are forced to split up and live separately; sharp decline in the standard of living, as a result of the loss of property, even after the family finds substitute housing; and feelings of dependence and instability as a result of the loss of their home, which is more than just a place to provide shelter. Research on the psychological effects indicates that house demolitions have a substantial post-traumatic effect, primarily on children.
(d) https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-pa...
According to the Ministry of Health in Gaza and United Nations Population Fund (UNPF) in the
occupied Palestinian Territory (oPt), there are an estimated 50,000 pregnant women in shelters with no access to adequate food and proper healthcare. Around 5,000 women are due to give birth in the
next month with more than 180 giving birth every day. Fifteen percent of them are likely to experience pregnancy or birth-related complications and need additional medical care that is not available.
Reem al-Salem, United Nations Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls its causes and consequences., explicitly warned, “the reproductive violence inflicted by Israel on Palestinian
women, newborn babies, infants, and children could be qualified ... as acts of genocide under Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention of Genocide...” including “imposing measures intended to prevent births within a group.” “States must prevent and punish such acts in accordance with their responsibilities under the Genocide Convention,” she emphasized.
(e) https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/settl...
An Israeli settler leader has told a conference on Israel's frontier with Gaza that Palestinians will "disappear" from the territory and said that thousands of people stand ready to move there "from north to south."
Addressing a conference on Monday also attended by Israeli Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir and Knesset members from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party, Daniella Weiss called for Palestinians living in Gaza to be relocated to other countries.
"We came here with one clear purpose: the purpose is to settle the entire Gaza Strip, not just part of it, not just a few settlements, the entire Gaza Strip from north to south,' said Weiss.
tl;dr “all good in the hood”
We didn't come all the way from America and Europe not to enjoy the high life in a brand new Gaza beach condo built on the bone fragments of thousands of kids.
I think this was tweeted about in real time by Mosab Abu Toha who writes for the New Yorker and escaped the torture camps. https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly
Israel are fighting Hamas who aggressively launched a pogrom against them.
They haven't shown any intent to destroy the Palestinian people, so all good in the hood and comfortably dismissed
(a)
Lol, a report by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics who I linked earlier where they state the Palestinian population is steadily increasing, so all good in the hood and comfortably dismissed And lol at this:
Since Oct. 7, 2023, Israel has destroyed or severely damaged a total of 89,000 buildings in Gaza, including 104 belonging to the UN.
Why tf do you think that is? Maybe if Hamas hadn't aggressively attacked Israel and didn't use the Palestinian people as human shields while launching rocket attacks, those buildings might still be standing. Certainly not akin to genocide
Rest of your links- which I've actually gone through fwtw- is the same old.
Again you can absolutely criticise Israel's response as disproportionate. You can absolutely condemn any dodgy actions by individual IDF members. You can absolutely critique illegal settlements and punitive demolitions. But they don;t amount to genocide or anything even close to it. Again can't take you seriously here at all when you bandy such words about willy nilly, sorry.
Israel are fighting Hamas who aggressively launched a pogrom against them.
They haven't shown any intent to destroy the Palestinian people, so all good in the hood and comfortably dismissed
Lol, a report by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics who I linked earlier where they state the Palestinian population is steadily increasing, so all good in the hood and comfortably dismissed And lol at this:
Why tf do you think that is? Maybe if Hamas hadn't aggressively attacked Israel and didn't use
You seem to be having trouble with the the definition of genocide.
Lets consult an expert on the subject then. An Israeli expert.
As an enthusiastic Trump supporter, how do you reconcile his support of Israel in the light of what you perceive as their "genocide." Logically this would seem to indicate "genocide" isn't that big of a deal to you, or you dont actually believe Israel is committing genocide, and you have other motivations for being extremely critical of Israel.
I am endlessly amused when critics of Israel selectively use Jewish/Israeli scholarship in the extremely rare instances when it confirms their own biases, when they completely disagree with the other 99% of Jewish/Israeli scholarship, and think most of it is a "Zionist" conspiracy to control the world.
In case you haven’t been able to tell, he is the expert.
Nevermind the countless reports detailing injustice that predate Oct 7th, the establishment of Hamas or even the idea of Hamas.
All good in the hood.
You seem to be having trouble with the the definition of genocide.
Lets consult an expert on the subject then. An Israeli expert.
Oh well if some academic said it then it must be true. Weird, I would have classed a "textbook" genocide as The Holocaust, Cambodia, or Rwanda. Guess I was wrong. I take it you find Israel's actions as comparable to the aforementioned three genocides? Since it's so textbook like?
Genocide denial rampant itt
Israel are fighting Hamas who aggressively launched a pogrom against them.
They haven't shown any intent to destroy the Palestinian people, so all good in the hood and comfortably dismissed
Lol, a report by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics who I linked earlier where they state the Palestinian population is steadily increasing, so all good in the hood and comfortably dismissed And lol at this:
Why tf do you think that is? Maybe if Hamas hadn't aggressively attacked Israel and didn't use
Antisemitism is bigger than I even realized, before I really tried to understand Oct 7th in historical context. And it's hard to get people to understand this because there are so many false narratives woven together. What's happened in Palestine has become this incorrectly conflated mix of genocide, occupation, and apartheid. These narratives are all born out of extreme ignorance to what's actually happening, and how major bodies, like the UN itself, have shown they are antisemitic.
We can look at the China / Uyghur genocide as an ongoing example. The US has rightly called it a genocide... but the UN, says it's not.
Wait, what? But there's been millions of people detained, put in forced labor concentration camps, involuntary sterilization, tens of thousands killed, and hundreds of thousands because of encampment conditions.
None of those things are happening in the Israel / Palestine conflict. Tens of thousands have been killed in response to an unprovoked (yes, unprovoked) attack.
What's happening in China aligns way more w/ genocide that anything that's happening in Palestine, but the UN will rush to say Israel is committing genocide, but not China.
Right...
Look, it's very difficult to take a step back and try and understand how complex this situations is, and it's very easy to get caught up in confirmation bias. I'd ask those that believe genocide is happening to really think about an appropriate response would be to what happened on Oct 7th. I guarantee there's no perfect answer there. And in those cases, it's always best to not rush to judgement.
Probably lots of them, and I wouldn't doubt that there are masses of people documenting everything. It's extremely apparent that Israel is held to standards that no other country on the planet is held to. Not the US, France, UK, China, anyone.
I'm an objective observer w/ no real dog in the fight. I'm not Jewish nor Muslim. I'm just processing the info as I see it.
Clear evidence of violations of basic humanitarian law dating back decades would, for most people, form a pattern of intent. That is, if you have any logic whatsoever.
Let's say that's 100% true. Have Palestinian's done anything at all to provoke any of that, or are they 100% innocent, and just victims of random Israeli violence?
We're talking about a people w/ the highest collective IQ, that have embedded in them the horrors of generational genocide.
What monsters these people must be to turn around and commit that on others. 
Oh well if some academic said it then it must be true. Weird, I would have classed a "textbook" genocide as The Holocaust, Cambodia, or Rwanda. Guess I was wrong. I take it you find Israel's actions as comparable to the aforementioned three genocides? Since it's so textbook like?
Well, it's quite simple really.
It either fits the definition of a genocide or it doesn't. It's not a competition to find the worst one.
And this one is ongoing which is probably why it is getting more attention. I realise common sense is in short supply around here but it might help to apply some before you hit the post reply button.
Let's say that's 100% true. Have Palestinian's done anything at all to provoke any of that, or are they 100% innocent, and just victims of random Israeli violence?
We're talking about a people w/ the highest collective IQ, that have embedded in them the horrors of generational genocide.
What monsters these people must be to turn around and commit that on others.
Have Zionists done anything at all to provoke the 1st or 2nd Intifada, or, dare I say it, October 7th or are they 100% innocent and victims of Hamas, PLO, or whatever other existential threat they want to pull out of their ass to be able to continue shooting 9 year olds in the skull?
Which came first anyway, the chicken or the egg?
Clear evidence of violations of basic humanitarian law dating back decades would, for most people, form a pattern of intent. That is, if you have any logic whatsoever.
Genocide doesn't mean whatever you decide it to mean. Here's another expert opinion, seeing as you seem to hold them in such esteem
This expert sez not a genocide. How come your experts are better eh?
IDF have made efforts to reduce civilian casualties, so again hardly a genocide. Just bad faith arguing.
Antisemitism is bigger than I even realized, before I really tried to understand Oct 7th in historical context. And it's hard to get people to understand this because there are so many false narratives woven together. What's happened in Palestine has become this incorrectly conflated mix of genocide, occupation, and apartheid. These narratives are all born out of extreme ignorance to what's actually happening, and how major bodies, like the UN itself, have shown they are antisemitic.
We can look
Didn't Amnesty International redefine genocide in order to reach their conclusion in their report?
Well, it's quite simple really.
It either fits the definition of a genocide or it doesn't. It's not a competition to find the worst one.
And this one is ongoing which is probably why it is getting more attention. I realise common sense is in short supply around here but it might help to apply some before you hit the post reply button.
But does it fit those examples or not?
ok guys look, have you considered that the people dying just arent as smart as their killers? maybe they are beneath, or less than, or even...under.
Have Zionists done anything at all to provoke the 1st or 2nd Intifada, or, dare I say it, October 7th or are they 100% innocent and victims of Hamas, PLO, or whatever other existential threat they want to pull out of their ass to be able to continue shooting 9 year olds in the skull?
Which came first anyway, the chicken or the egg?
Well, like you said, you can always find something that happened first, either way. Even the "Nakba" was predated by a tremendous amount of violence going both ways between jews and Muslim Arabs in this part of the world.
From a 40,000 foot view perspective, this has been going on (almost exclusively one way until recently) hundreds of years, since this part of the region was Islamized and the Jews that didn't convert become dhimni under an apartheid regime that lasted formally and informally until the 20th century.
Which obviously created a tremendous amount of tension, as not only was this region the historical homeland of the Jews, but also the location of their most holy temple, which they had severe restrictions to visit and pray at until 1967.
