LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
A prior post calculating the total team assists contributed by player, which incorporates assisted fg%. LeBron James adds far more to total team assists than both Kobe and MJ.
LEBRON LOWERED ALL HIS TEAMMATES' ASSISTS, WHICH PRODUCED LOW-ASSIST TEAMS ON AVERAGE
ASSISTS PER GAME AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT LEBRON:
12-14' Kyrie............... 5.8 (no Lebron)
15-17' Kyrie............... 5.3
18-24' Kyrie............... 5.8 (no Lebron)
04-10' Bosh............... 2.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Bosh............... 1.6
15-16' Bosh............... 2.3 (no Lebron)
11-14' Love................ 3.0 (no Lebron)
15-18' Love................ 2.1
19-21' Love................ 2.8 (no Lebron)
05-08' Mo................... 5.7 (no Lebron)
09-10' Mo................... 4.6
11-13' Mo................... 5.3 (no Lebron)
09-10' Chalmers........ 4.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Chalmers........ 3.6
99-04' Snow................ 6.9 (no Lebron)
06-07' Snow................ 4.1
01-05' Hughes........... 3.8 (no Lebron)
06-08' Hughes........... 3.3
2018 Ingram.............. 3.9 (no Lebron)
2019 Ingram.............. 3.0
20-25' Ingram............ 5.2 (no Lebron
2019 Kuzma............... 2.5
22-25' Kuzma............. 3.8 (no Lebron)
2018 Ball..................... 7.2 (no Lebron)
2019 Ball..................... 5.4
20-22' Ball................... 6.1 (no Lebron)
00-09' Jamison........... 1.8 (no Lebron)
2010 Jamison............. 1.3
11-12' Jamison........... 1.9 (no Lebron)
04-10' Wade............... 6.6 (no Lebron)
11-14' Wade............... 4.7
19-22' D-Lo................. 6.7 (no Lebron)
23-25' D-Lo................. 6.2
09-21' Westbrook....... 8.5 (no Lebron)
2022 Westbrook..........7.1
15-18'' KCP.................. 2.0 (no Lebron)
19-21' KCP................... 1.6
22-25' KCP................... 2.2 (no Lebron)
Lebron lowered all his teammates' assists because all high-scoring, low-assisted 1st options like SGA, Lebron and Luka (ball-dominators) have high volume of unassisted buckets that reduce assist opportunities for teammates, which produces low average ranking in team assists.
Specifically, there were 96 times that a player averaged 25+ with below 40% assisted rate, and they averaged 18th in team assists over this sample size and produced a top 5 assist team 5 of 96 times (5%).. Otoh, players that averaged 25+ with above 50% assisted rate averaged 10th in assists and produced a top 5 assist team 36 of 87 times (41%).
In addition to reducing teammates' assists, high-scoring primary ballhandlers increase teammates' assisted rate (play-finishing, aka "spot-up roles), as shown in previous post above.
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Statistical proof that Jordan won with less offensive and defensive help than 2009 Lebron:
Mo Williams vs #4 SRS Magic'.............. 18 on 38%........ #3 team defense
89' Pippen' vs #1 SRS Cavs.................... 15 on 40%...... #11 team defense
97' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Heat.................... 16 on 39%........ #4 team defense
98' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Pacers................. 17 on 39%........ #9 team defense
98' Pippen' vs #3 SRS Jazz'..................... 16 on 41%........ #9 team defense
96-98' Pippen entire playoffs................ 18 on 41%....... #1, #4, #9 defenses
^^^ Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, while Jordan did all the time and with worse team defenses than Lebron had.
The reason that Lebron cannot carry the scoring load is because he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat to teams, so he needs all-time scoring help like Wade and star 3rd options as well... Otoh, jumpshooters like MJ or Curry can drop 40 while the ball moves, so they can beat top teams while carrying the scoring load and therefore win with less scoring help like Klay or Pippen and no 3rd scorer.
Lebron lowers all his teammates assists and therefore produces low assist teams... He cannot add more to team assists when he's reducing everyone's assists and having low-assist teams.. Your numbers are just personal APG that apply to Westbrook, Harden, Luka and all dumb ball-dominators, who all lower their teammates' assists and produce low assist teams.
Ultimately, ball-dominators cannot be leading scorer/1st option for the best basketball (0 for 12), so they're inferior to the best skillsets that can (jumpshooters and bigs)... This puts Lebron out of the top 10
Lebron lowers all his teammates assists and therefore produces low assist teams... He cannot add more to team assists when he's reducing everyone's assists and having low-assist teams.. Your numbers are just personal APG that apply to Westbrook, Harden, Luka and all dumb ball-dominators, who all lower their teammates' assists and produce low assist teams.
Ultimately, ball-dominators have never been leading scorer/1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions)... 0 for 12
False. MJ lowers teammate assists too. Less than LeBron does, in fact. You are giving false data by cherry picking. Sorry, u lose.
A prior post proving LeBron improves team assists more than MJ. It is conclusive:
So, even though the empirical evidence has shown the complete opposite for everything else you have claimed when I took the time to look up the data, I was curious about this as it seems plausible. Perhaps someone that does not watch basketball but has a self-claimed stratospheric basketball IQ could indeed know this without even watching the games?
Here is what I found:
Cleveland 2002-03 (pre-LeBron) = 20.9 team assists per game
Cleveland 2003-04 (with LeBron) = 22 team assists per game (
You will notice that in my analysis, I take the entire team’s assists. I do not cherry pick specific players that bias the conclusion in the direction I want. That is why the results differ.
False. MJ lowers teammate assists too. Less than LeBron does, in fact. You are giving false data by cherry picking. Sorry, u lose.
MJ increased all his teammates' assists, while Lebron reduced all his teammates' assists, with only 1 exception each (Cartwright and Delonte)
I listed all the starters that they played with.
And it's mathematical fact that low-assisted 1st options give teammates less opportunity to assist... Even fidstar agrees with this.. You're just in denial because you lost, so we're having to go over old arguments so you can lose them again.
You will notice that in my analysis, I take the entire team’s assists. I do not cherry pick specific players that bias the conclusion in the direction I want. That is why the results differ.
Lebron cannot produce high-assist teams - that's the issue, so your data is meaningless and also the Cavs cratered in assists the very next season after the initial increase.. Lebron cannot grow team assists and reach high assist levels because he's reducing everyone's assists and imposing spot-up roles.
High scorers that are low-assisted produce low-assist teams on average (low average ranking) and they produce top 5 assist teams 5 of 96 times (5%)..
Specifically, there were 96 times that a player averaged 25+ with below 40% assisted rate, and they averaged 18th in team assists over this sample size and produced a top 5 assist team 5 of 96 times (5%).. Otoh, players that averaged 25+ with above 50% assisted rate averaged 10th in assists and produced a top 5 assist team 36 of 87 times (41%).
So you're just a rank liar at this point.... And the weaker ball movement of ball-dominators is why they cannot be the 1st option for the dynasties or dominant champions, aka the best basketball (0 for 12
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"DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) AND THE 1ST OPTION FOR THAT RUN:
1. 2017 Warriors (16-1)......... DURANT
2. 2001 Lakers (15-1)............. SHAQ
3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)............... DUNCAN
4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)............. TATUM
5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).......... JOKIC
6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)............... DUNCAN
7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).............. SHAQ
8. 1997 Bulls (15-4).................. JORDAN
"DYNASTIES" THAT MOSTLY WON FOR A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS (I.E. 3 IN 5) AND THEIR 1ST OPTION:
1. Chicago Bulls....................... JORDAN
2. San Antonio Spurs.............. DUNCAN
3. Los Angeles Lakers............. SHAQ
4. Golden State Warriors........ CURRY
Since possession-tracking began in 1997, bigs or jumpshooters were required at 1st option for 8 of 8 "dominant champions" that averaged 1 loss or less per round for their title run (4 losses max), and 4 of 4 "dynasties" that mostly won for a material stretch of 5 years (i.e. 3 in 5)..
So that's 12 of 12 instances of dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball) where ball-dominators were NOT the 1st option in favor of bigs or jumpshooters.. Since the best bigs and jumpshooters produce the best basketball, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, which easily puts guys like Lebron and Oscar out of the top 10 - i.e. since ball-dominators can't be 1st option for the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can.
The issue is that high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron or Harden score large amounts without being assisted by teammates (low assisted rates), so they have a large volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement.. Otoh, highly-assisted 1st options like bigs and jumpshooters produce high-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has.. Since 1997, players that averaged 25 ppg and above 50% assisted rate had top 5 assist teams 36 of 87 times (41%) and averaged 10th in team assists, while players that averaged 25 ppg and below 40% assisted rate (ball-dominators) produced top 5 assist teams 5 of 96 times (5%) and averaged 18th in team assists.
MJ increased all his teammates' assists, while Lebron reduced all his teammates' assists, with only 1 exception each (Cartwright and Delonte)
I listed all the starters that they played with.
And it's mathematical fact that low-assisted 1st options give teammates less opportunity to assist... Even fidstar agrees with this.. You're just in denial because you lost, so we're having to go over old arguments so you can lose them again.
False. Fidstar actually doesn’t agree with anything you’ve written and he’s been quite explicit about that.
In order to do your analysis correctly, without cherry picking, you need to do it with the entire roster, not just starters. There was a lot of roster turnover and non-starters got plenty of minutes with Jordan too.
Luc Longley, Toni Kukoc, and Steve Kerr’s assists per 36 min went down with Jordan and you don’t appear to have listed them. This proves you have to lie and that your arguments are wrong.
If you correct the data and logic I may read some of it tomorrow if the post contains anything interesting. Can’t make any promises though.
This is what a post looks like where there is no cherry-picking and all data is included. You may want to copy this format.
I have some evidence.
A while back, I explicitly showed that whenever LeBron James leaves a team, their total team assists are reduced. And every time LeBron James joins a team, their total team assists are increased. This is strong evidence that LeBron James improves his teams overall assist totals, not reduces them, because the data factually shows the assist totals improved, and that the "career" 40% assisted fg% threshold is arbitrary and irrelevant.
But you can actually calculate this more di
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Thread Cliffs
Elite strategy and elite roster construction is impossible with high-scoring ball-handlers like Lebron, Luka, Trae, etc because they turn everyone into spot-up shooter - this is statistical fact because they reduce everyone's assists (playmaking) while increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing).. See the stats for Lebron above.
The inability to construct elite rosters and elite strategy is why ball-dominators have never been the 1st option for the best basketball, such as dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12).. Since ball-dominators can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as bigs and jumpshooters (12 for 12).. This is a legitimate framework that puts Lebron out of the top ten all-time.
Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Steph Curry would not average 50+% assisted fg% if they were asked to play point guard in a Mike D’Antoni offense. That was the point. Not that some offenses utilize high scoring ball dominators and others do not. We already knew that and it’s common sense.
The take home is that assisted fg% is a function of offense and role within that offense. It’s not a measure of skill the way say shooting % is. This is why players (like Nash) have averaged as high as about 60
Logical proof that assisted fg% is a function of offensive scheme and role within that scheme, and is not a skillset limited statistic.
In order to do your analysis correctly, without cherry picking, you need to do it with the entire roster, not just starters.
All the starters is a massive sample of the most pertinent players, and we've done it for the entire team anyway by showing that Lebron and ALL high-scoring ball-dominators in history produce low-assist teams (low average ranking and almost never top 5 assist teams).
Specifically, since possession-tracking began in 1997, there were 96 times that a player averaged 25+ with below 40% assisted rate in a season, and they averaged 18th in team assists over this huge sample and produced a top 5 assist team 5 of 96 times (5%).. Otoh, players that averaged 25+ with above 50% assisted rate averaged 10th in assists and produced a top 5 assist team 36 of 87 times (41%).
And it's mathematical fact that low-assisted 1st options give teammates less opportunity to assist...
Remember, you said he said this. Don’t change the words now.
Don’t forget to include the mathematical proof that one cannot compensate by increasing pace and number of possessions. Or that the ball cannot be moved around more to give other players assisted field goals. Don’t forget those parts of the proof.
Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Steph Curry would not average 50+% assisted fg% if they were asked to play point guard in a Mike D’Antoni offense.
MJ and Curry are elite with the ball, so they could play a ball-dominant offense, but the issue is that Lebron, Luka and other ball-dominators cannot play a ball movement offense - they cannot have the 50% assisted rate that you specified above.
In the hundreds of seasons that ball-dominators like Luka, Trae, Wall, Lebron and company have played, they've never averaged 50% assisted rate.. And that's why they can't play with great ball movement of "dynasty" ball.. That's why they've never been the 1st option for the best basketball, such as dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12).
Remember, you said he said this. Don’t change the words now.
Don’t forget to include the mathematical proof that one cannot compensate by increasing pace and number of possessions. Or that the ball cannot be moved around more to give other players assisted field goals. Don’t forget those parts of the proof.
When I provide proof that fidstar agreed with me, then you'll be wrong on that just like you've been wrong about everything.
MJ and Curry are elite with the ball, so they could play a ball-dominant offense, but the issue is that Lebron, Luka and other ball-dominators cannot play a ball movement offense - they cannot have the 50% assisted rate that you specified above.
In the hundreds of seasons that ball-dominators like Luka, Trae, Wall, Lebron and company have played, they've never averaged 50% assisted rate.. And that's why they can't play with great ball movement of "dynasty" ball.. That's why they've never been the
False. We have proven that assisted rate is a function of role within the offense so LeBron, Luka etc would have a higher assisted % if they didn’t play point. They played point though because they are good at it, and the coach felt that was the most valuable use of their skills. Not that they couldn’t do other things. Your logic is still backwards. Want to try again?
I did not see Luc Longley on there, he was a starter, and he had by far the biggest drop with Jordan returning. Why did you leave him out? Just curious.
Luc Longley averaged 2.1 assists in Chicago, and 1.1 in Phoenix, and 0.9 in MIN... so you're wrong again as always.
But you're just trying to deflect from the fact that we've done it for the entire team by showing that Lebron and ALL high-scoring ball-dominators in history produce low-assist teams (low average ranking and almost never top 5 assist teams).
Specifically, since possession-tracking began in 1997, there were 96 times that a player averaged 25+ with below 40% assisted rate in a season, and they averaged 18th in team assists over this huge sample and produced a top 5 assist team 5 of 96 times (5%).. Otoh, players that averaged 25+ with above 50% assisted rate averaged 10th in assists and produced a top 5 assist team 36 of 87 times (41%).
False. We have proven that assisted rate is a function of role within the offense so LeBron, Luka etc would have a higher assisted % if they didn’t play point. They played point though because they are good at it, and the coach felt that was the most valuable use of their skills. Not that they couldn’t do other things. Your logic is still backwards. Want to try again?
Luka, Lebron, Trae, Wall and others can only play like low-assisted point guards because that's their skillset and they've never played any other way.. They never had 50% assisted rates required for dynasties, dominant champions or high-assist teams (high average ranking and top 5 assist teams regularly).
