Israel/Palestine thread

hamas' demands include the liquidation of the state of israel and the forced deportation and/or extermination of its jewish inhabitants

they even have a handy phrase for it, which you will be familiar with

important not to let the usual suspects above distract you from this FACT

Serious question. If you are a Palestinian leader who is aware of the entire history of the conflict to date, and magically transported back to the 90s where you can make any decisions you want.... What would you do differently, if anything?

What reasonable proposal did Arafat make that was refused? Arafat was an Egyptian con man, who never had any interest in making a Palestinian state. His only interest was in consolidating his own wealth and power off of western aid.

All of Palestinian leadership for the last 80 years, including present day, has this same incentive problem. All the leaders get wealthy and powerful from outside nations funneling them money with zero accountability, transparency or oversight. Why would they ever make a state that would screw up that gravy train?

Westerners have this romanticized notion of heroic freedom fighters. And at the bottom that may be true to an extent. But at the top The Resistance is first and foremost a business. And there is no interest or incentives at all to make a state or peace.

Until it isn't. Huge mistake to rely 9n the USA always being there. Huge mistake to think 'might makes right' will remain in your favour.

Might makes right has always been how that part of the world operates, and always will be. It is just how Near Eastern culture and psychology works. There are no liberal values at all to speak of.

So given the people Israel has to live beside have no liberal values or first principles, the question is if Israel is isolating itself too much to the point they wont have the might moving forward.

They have no other options. It's not a mistake to do what they can until they can to the maximum to combat their enemies who are all hellbent about exterminating Israeli.

I don't agree but to the extent it is true then you need to use the times you have the might to change it.

Making collective punishment etc etc the norm is insanity. Those who justify it so easily will be horrified by it when it's coming to their side.

If 60% of italians were in favor of a terrorist group to be in power in Italy and conduct systemic acts of terrors against the USA, i would fully expect the USA to carpet bomb italy until we stop, and they would be absolutely right to do so.

And if they all thought like you they would have to remain a much bigger bully than Italy.

Morally bankrupt but at least it's likely they will remain a lot bigger than Italy.

Last time the USA bombed Italy it was because the Lucioms were in power there.

Every few years I link to the net worth of the top Hamas guys living outside Gaza. And every few years people realize they're all richer than Taylor Swift. We're talking about many mega billionaires, while Gaza is what it is.

And somehow, it never bothers any of the pro pal guys. It's quite something actually.

Continuation of the military occupation and sovereignty over Al Aqsa are red lines. So no major change. What would you suggest?

Further proof of the Israeli policy of making life in the West Bank absolutely miserable so people will leave.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2025/3/5/public-execution-the-israeli-checkpoint-terrorising-a-palestinian-town

Al Jazeera

‘Public execution’: The Israeli checkpoint terrorising a Palestinian town

Note that the checkpoint is located right in the area targeted for expansion by nearby Israeli squatters.

"Pal" is short for Palestinian and includes women, children, old people, and young men even who just want to live peaceful lives. Conflating "Palestinian" with "Hamas" should be seen the same way as conflating other groups like "the Israeli state", "Israelis" and "Jews".

I'm a "pro pal" guy and anyone who isn't is some kind of racist or sociopath or morally depraved or something along those lines.

Micro in this thread, you might be the only pro pal guy not also pretty stoked that Hamas pulled off their "resistance"

So for the sake of the thread, let's assume everyone understood what I meant, and why.

But also, lol the deflection from the main point of that post.

So? I don't care to address the main point. I addressed the part I cared to address and it's unrelated to the net worth of Hamas leadership.

But, I think kelhus thinks he's "pro pal". 57onred seems "pro pal". Tien was "pro pal"? Maybe it's not as clear as you think

I'm not remotely stoked about it.

Nor afaik are many others

The thread is called Israel/Palestine. You're pro one or the other.

Let us stop clutching our pearls, if possible.

or pro both

I'm pro the Israeli government and IDF behaving like human beings to their neighbours.

Sure? One can be pro both. Fact is the removal of Hamas, to a Palestinian, doesn't look very pro-Pal either. But that's what "pro both" looks like.

Additionally, a green light in all of the West Bank and chunks of Jerusalem is the same as saying "place rocket pads here please". Particularly with what I think Turkey/Syria will look to do over the next decade as they become a bit like Iran/Lebanon. Hamas can't exist if you want to be pro both.

It's really not that simple. But, you think only other people need to be careful about language? It seems like when some people aren't careful about typing "the Israeli government" for every criticism they are called anti-semitic.

I'm not rooting against israel and It's not impossible.

I appreciate inherently decent people here are trying to justify a monstrousity (to themselves as well) by desperately trying to believe it's the only option.

"pro-pal" sounding like a threat. It's like, chez, you're either with us entirely or you're against us. And if you're anti-israel you're an anti-semite.