Israel/Palestine thread

Nope, I’d rather live under a Jewish state, not as an occupied territory but under the state proper (although even then it’s not like Muslims have a good history of that either). You have to compare counterfactually what it’s like living as a Jew under those societies.

Also I mean, it’s just obvious that Muslims would treat me worse as an atheist. lol

It’s a Jewish dominated state in the same sense that Japan’s state is dominated by Japan. Having statehood as a particular ethnic group is not inherently bad, even you psycho commies support them.

non-Muslims live throughout Palestine and are treated fine. well, they are treated fine by the Muslims that is. not by the Israelis ofc.

I would much rather live in one of the GCC Muslim countries where there are tons of atheists and Christians, who are working there making millions of dollars anyway. Gcc countries are incredibly clean, safe and prosperous. Israeli Jews are now going on vacation to places like the UAE after the Abraham accords.

But yeah if you want an even more atheist friendly Muslim majority country go to Albania or Turkey, which are secular and actually allow interfaith marriage whereas Israel does not allow people to have an interfaith marriage. If a couple wants an interfaith marriage and they live in Israel they need to leave Israel and have it performed outside the country. It ain’t like that in Turkey.

you’re thinking about some country like Afghanistan. Sure I would rather not live there.

Afghanistan is all he's thinking about because he's not aware of other Muslim cultures.

Correct. Most major religions have undergone reformations over the centuries that curtailed extremist interpretations and reduced the fusion of religious authority with political power. Christianity was among the last to go through this process, particularly during and after the Protestant Reformation and the Enlightenment, when internal challenges, secular law, and cultural pressure pushed back against religious extremism.

Modern Christian nationalism seeks to revive a more assertive public role for Christianity, but it operates within societies where women are not legally oppressed, most mainstream Christian denominations accept gay people, and sectarian violence between Christians is largely absent. This is not to say abuses or isolated violence never occur, but they are no longer institutionally sanctioned or culturally dominant.

Islam, by contrast, has not experienced a comparably successful, widely institutionalized reformation that removed religious authority from state power or consistently delegitimized violent interpretations. Extremists do not emerge in a vacuum, they draw on existing theological interpretations of the Quran and Hadith and believe their actions are religiously justified. While the vast majority of Muslims reject terrorism, Islamist ideology currently accounts for a disproportionate share of global religious violence, both domestically and through transnational terrorism.

For this reason, Muslim moderates face the same challenge Christians once confronted - asserting control over their religious institutions, marginalizing extremist interpretations, and separating faith from political and legal authority. Christianity’s experience during the Reformation and Enlightenment shows this process is possible, but until something similar occurs within Islam at a broad institutional level, Islamist movements will likely continue to represent a significant share of religiously motivated violence worldwide.

pretty incredible to type this out after we just watched Jewish Extremists exterminate 100s of thousands of people in the name of their religion and politics.

Not even close.

Victor makes a good point. Are there any current Muslim genocides that need "asserting control over?" There's currently a Zionist/Christian genocide that needs addressing. Who's going to deradicalize them?

Oh, Vic does a whataboutism, so lets address it. lol

This thread is literally a cesspool of misinformation and ignorance. I don't know why I try.

The short answer is yes (Darfur for one). The long answer is, most of it has already occurred, and Muslims pushed Christians and Jews out of most middle eastern countries over the past 70+ years. Jews escaping to Israel of course. And if you don't know the rest, I can recommend some history books.

Applying your own arguments consistently is not "whataboutism". Even if we were to accept the crimes in Sudan as somehow applicable to Islam, the vast majority of Muslims oppose the Western and Israeli backed genociders there. imagine if 80-90% supported the Sudan genocide?

You're doing no such thing. I was talking about religious reformation, you brought up what you believe to be a genocide. If you can't see why that's a whataboutism... not sure what to tell you.

Are you capable of answering honestly? Are you Muslim vic?

You brought up the Sudan genocide. I pointed out that very few Muslims support it (while ironically Israel and the USA do support the Extremist Salafi brand of Islam). I think somewhere around 10% are Salafi which I actually agree is too high. And so do Muslims throughout the world, like the legendary martyrs Suleimani and Nasrallah and many others, who fought like hell against the Extemists (only to be assassinated by the Ameri-Israeli Empire.)

So I don't think that's an indictment of Islam as a whole. If you do, then I wonder why you would let Judaism get a pass when somewhere around 80-90% (and 99% of institutions) support the genocidal Israeli state.

That's not how we got here. Try again.

right man, I already pointed out that very few Muslims are Extremists and much of the Muslim world actually fights and dies to stop them. you brought up Darfur as if that doesnt prove my point.

No. I was talking about reformation of religion and responding to someone else, and you came in with a whataboutism.

You dodged my question.

Are you capable of answering honestly? Are you Muslim vic?

I don't answer bad faith questions esp when you already know.

No, I don't know, that's why I asked. Can you answer?

I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim.

neither am I.

Freakdaddy, your argument is that present-day Islam is uniquely violent. Isn't that a fair summation?

But it isn't true. The crimes past and present of the West and Israel are far greater.

Google, which religion or culture produces the most violence per capita among non-state actors today?

So you're lumping "the west" + Israel, and comparing that to Islam? I hope re-reading it now you realize that doesn't make sense. There's a ton of religions and cultures that make up "the west".

I'm really not interested in this thread and regret posting. I just wanted to state something in the wake of another antisemitic mass shooting. This thread is a cesspool of antisemitism and shouldn't exist imho. I generally steer clear of it, and I'm reminded why.

Every three months you drop by, say it's an antisemitic thread, then don't give even a nod to proving just one post is antisemitic.

lol at throwing in "non-state actors". kinda shows that you know exactly what is up.

Protestant Christianity emphasizes individualism*. Islam emphasizes tribal group identity over individualism, and glorifies 7th century desert warrior morality as the epitome of human moral progress. For these reasons I really dont see Islam as having a capacity to moderate easily. It is just structurally designed to be very moderation resistant. But I will be happy to be wrong.

*Judaism as we understand it is basically a Christian religion that evolved in Europe during the Middle Ages. There is some continuity with the religion/morality as practiced by Israelites 2000 years ago, but a lot of divergence too. The Israelites of 2000 years ago were probably culturally/morally more similar to Muslims today; as opposed to Judaism today which is more aligned with western morality, especially an ethos of individualism over dogmatic collectivism.