Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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33422 Replies
All I'm saying is that just because you had a bad experience doesn't give you the right to kill innocent people. I'm shocked people support this idea.
Some people have low expectations for the Palestinian’s self determination and autonomy. Their entire lives have been predetermined by previous wrongdoings by Jews and US politicians.
What they are saying is that they support the "Palestinians" right to resist. This resistance includes the killing of innocent people. It sounds to me like there is support for people like Sinwar just because he went through a bad time as a kid. This is wrong thinking. Sinwar and his ilk have only brought more misery to their people. No one should feel sad that he has been eliminated. If you are going to fight back at least have a chance to win. Certainly don't target innocent people like these
Sure I and others support the palestinians right to exist
I and I think others are talking about conditions that result in some people becoming terrorists. That's a matter of fact not a matter of rights to kill innocent people.
Some people have low expectations for the Palestinian’s self determination and autonomy. Their entire lives have been predetermined by previous wrongdoings by Jews and US politicians.
That's a sad way of life. There are examples all over the place where people have overcome their situation to create a better life. Look at what the Japanese did after WW2. They finally accepted defeat and went on to create a prosperous country. Having a victim mentality will only maintain your victimhood. There needs to be a massive paradigm shift in the attitudes of the "Palestinians". This resistance thing is not working for them.
Sure I and others support the palestinians right to exist
I and I think others are talking about conditions that result in some people becoming terrorists. That's a matter of fact not a matter of rights to kill innocent people.
I support the "Palestinians" right to exist but they need to come up with a new non violent strategy.
That's a sad way of life. There are examples all over the place where people have overcome their situation to create a better life. Look at what the Japanese did after WW2. They finally accepted defeat and went on to create a prosperous country. Having a victim mentality will only maintain your victimhood. There needs to be a massive paradigm shift in the attitudes of the "Palestinians". This resistance thing is not working for them.
It has been working for the people who get to make the decisions. Between UN aid, Iranian money and weapons, and corruption, most of the people put in charge of Palestinian society have been heavily incentivized to pursue armed resistance. In the last year Israel has intentionally decided to flip the incentive structure, by killing these people.
We will see how much this inverting the incentive structure alters whether armed resistance is viewed as a rationale strategy.
I think people who think like Microbet over-emphasize how much Israel's actions are contributing to the problem, and under-emphasize how much foreign influence (IRI, Qatar and corrupt UN agencies) is contributing to the problem.
Post WWII Germany and Japan weren't given alternatives like the Palestinians. No one was offering them unlimited weapons and aid to keep the fight going indefinitely, while pressuring the US to not totally defeat them.
This is hogwash. Were the Japanese in a forever war with the US after we dropped the bombs on them? At some point the enemy realizes that resistance is futile.
BTW, What's the over/under of days until Khomeini is eliminated?
Do you see the parallels?
United States govt. killed 100s of thousands of civilians (non combatants) in a situation where they arguably didn't have to.
Israel, with support of US and some EU countries are killing 100s of thousands of civilians (non combatants), in a situation where they arguably don't have to.
Change the thread title to include Syria, Lebanon, Iran... nah just close the ****ing thread.
Blessed are the peacemakers...
Are we still waiting for 10 more Hitlers to spring up and German suicide bombers to start blowing up kids at pop concerts, or have I missed something?
So Oxfam is ordering the invasion of Israel? I don’t know what exactly they are demanding but I’m not sure why people would want those individuals to stay in place if indeed there is going to be military operations in the region. Wasn’t Israel called genociders for keeping their agreements in place with Egypt to not allow border crossings?
Israel is in a situation where they will be condemned no matter what they do.
In the sense that Germany, Japan and South Africa were condemned "no matter what they do."
Once they stopped being supresmacist states that brutalized those deemed inferior, they were eventually welcomed back and few people resent younger generations.
This was the founder of Isreal's Shas party in 2010
"
Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel."[87]
In Israel, death has no dominion over them... With gentiles, it will be like any person – they need to die, but [God] will give them longevity. Why? Imagine that one’s donkey would die, they'd lose their money. This is his servant... That’s why he gets a long life, to work well for this Jew," Yosef said.
"Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat.
That is why gentiles were created"[87]
Can you find a David Duke quote that bad?
So they view most Americans as subhuman. They got 400k votes in the last election. Like 13 million votes in an American election. And it's hardly contained to that party.
BBC
Mr Ben Gvir leads the ultranationalist Otzma Yehudit or "Jewish Power" party which espouses racist, anti-Arab policies. He has previous convictions for inciting racism and supporting terrorism.
In December he was made a top minister by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who gave him a seat in his security cabinet and put him in charge of the domestic polic
If you think Trump is racist, guess what. Not in a million years is he putting someone from the actual KKk in charge of LEO.
Deputy minister of Defense:
Ben Dahan has made controversial remarks about Palestinians. While discussing the resumption of peace talks in a radio interview in 2013, Ben Dahan said that “To me, they are like animals, they aren’t human.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-deputy...
Today, the government rapes, tortures and starves prisoners. Often without charge, let alone trial. 65% of Isrealis oppose criminal prosecution of guards who raped male inmates.
They execute small children every day, assassinate journalists and intellectuals, use starvation and disease as weapons, and bomb every hospital and school that exists, then bomb the hospital tents that pop up.
To be crystal clear, I am not saying all Jews in Isreal or elsewhere are supremacists. Much of the sharpest criticism comes from Jews ranging from Chomsky and Bernie to Woody Allen and Phillip Roth to students and clergy. Just so happens my ex is a Jew who barely speaks to half her family cuz of this stuff. I stumbled on a Jews against Genocide FB page with 40k members. Unfortunately, their opposites control Isreal and American politicians can't give them enough weapons.
palestinians have a right to exist, but do not have a right to rape and murder israeli civilians
the two things arent the same, despite what hamas says
Attack
does anyone know the status of hamas' suicide bombing campaign, announced 9 october? is that still a go or has it been called off after sinwar's demise
Its not a genocide. The most mortal army in the world is merely defending Israel
then
We must clear the whole of gaza for our settlers in case there are suicide bombers there
palestinians have a right to exist, but do not have a right to rape and murder israeli civilians
the two things arent the same, despite what hamas says
you guys gonna keep saying that over 1200 killed and 200 hostages as 200k Palestinian civilians die and you guys dgaf about that because you all believe in collective punishment
In the sense that Germany, Japan and South Africa were condemned "no matter what they do."
Once they stopped being supresmacist states that brutalized those deemed inferior, they were eventually welcomed back and few people resent younger generations.
I think those are bad comparisons. Arabs have the same rights as Jews inside Israel, and they maintain those rights even after many wars with various arab nations.
This was the founder of Isreal's Shas party in 2010
"
Can you find a David Duke quote that bad?
So they view most Americans as subhuman. They got 400k votes in the last election. Like 13 million votes in an American election. And it's hardly contained to that party.
It’s a bad quote, but is this guy really the example you want to use? He supported peace talks between Israel and Palestine and apparently the party itself also originally supported that from what I read off wikipedia. Yeah he made some bad statements on non-Jews, but it also wasn’t a racial statement since he also supported the migration of ethiopian jews.
I don’t know if this guys entire history should just be collapsed into one moment when he seems to be someone who in his older years was prone to making bombastic statements and then walking them back. David Duke is someone who has consistently advocated for white supremacy at the exclusion of all others, this guy is someone who made a couple hateful statements that were condemned by many but overall did not seem like an ethnic jewish supremacist.
BBC
Yeah **** ben-gvir. You have to recognize though that he is extremely controversial in Israeli society. I certainly agree his participation in political society is horrible for Israel.
If you think Trump is racist, guess what. Not in a million years is he putting someone from the actual KKk in charge of LEO.
I mean it’s a fair point, Netanyahu’s government sucks.
Deputy minister of Defense:
Ben Dahan has made controversial remarks about Palestinians. While discussing the resumption of peace talks in a radio interview in 2013, Ben Dahan said that “To me, they are like animals, they aren’t human.”
Today, the government rapes, tortures and starves prisoners. Often without charge, let alone trial. 65% of Isrealis oppose criminal prosecution of guards who raped male inmates.
Absolutely unacceptable if true, although to the extent that there was rape discovered I believe those soldiers were disciplined by the military. And the poll you’re referring to was about whether they should be disciplined by military procedures or civilian court, not if they should not be disciplined whatsoever.
They execute small children every day, assassinate journalists and intellectuals, use starvation and disease as weapons, and bomb every hospital and school that exists, then bomb the hospital tents that pop up.
Well I would disagree with your characterization. For instance if they wanted to engage in a starvation and disease campaign, why would they be facilitating international aid transparently through COGAT? Obviously I agree there have been heavily civilian casualties and I would hope that whatever remains of Hamas would lat down their weapons and surrender. They especially should stop using civilian infrastructure to conduct their operations and attacks.
To be crystal clear, I am not saying all Jews in Isreal or elsewhere are supremacists. Much of the sharpest criticism comes from Jews ranging from Chomsky and Bernie to Woody Allen and Phillip Roth to students and clergy. Just so happens my ex is a Jew who barely speaks to half her family cuz of this stuff. I stumbled on a Jews against Genocide FB page with 40k members. Unfortunately, their opposites control Isreal and American politicians can't give them enough weapons.
I definitely think that Netanyahu has cozied up to right-wing extremists to remain in power, that’s for sure.
Honestly looking at Israel is probably the best argument against proportional representation since that’s probably what allows extremists right-wing parties to be competitive.
you guys gonna keep saying that over 1200 killed and 200 hostages as 200k Palestinian civilians die and you guys dgaf about that because you all believe in collective punishment
They all believe that Israeli lives are worth far more than Palestinian lives, that’s for sure.
If any other nation was like this with their neighbour we could call them racist.
I think chez is right about that. Hamas is not Gaza or all Palestinians. There is no unlimited right to kill completely innocent people - children included - just because there is an enemy that wants you and everyone like you dead. They have to want to do the harm you are trying to prevent and capable of it. The justification for destroying Germany and Japan so completely was not just about what they wanted to do, but what they were capable of doing and how genuine the threat of losing the w
It seems like you skipped the intermediate scenario.
There is no unlimited right to kill innocent children of people who want you dead if they don't have the means to do it.
There is an unlimited right to kill the actual adults who want you dead if they have the means to do it.
But you left out whether there is a right to kill adults if they want you dead but don't appear to have the means.
Drone launched towards Netanyahu's house. Unfortunately he appears to be still alive.
you guys gonna keep saying that over 1200 killed and 200 hostages as 200k Palestinian civilians die and you guys dgaf about that because you all believe in collective punishment
no, history didn't start on oct 7, hamas & co have been targeting civilians with suicide bombs and rockets (tens of thousands of them) for decades
the war in gaza has nothing to do with collective punishment, its about the destruction of hamas
encouraging reports of some small hesbollah units surrendering 👍
Boids, I swear this is the most anyone online has reminded me of you. True compliment fwiw (probably due to the profile pic too)
It seems like you skipped the intermediate scenario.
There is no unlimited right to kill innocent children of people who want you dead if they don't have the means to do it.
There is an unlimited right to kill the actual adults who want you dead if they have the means to do it.
But you left out whether there is a right to kill adults if they want you dead but don't appear to have the means.
last I checked like 85% of Israeli Jews support this war of extermination. I dont think you would apply the above criteria to them for obv reasons. or even to the Westerners who are often quite celebratory of the genocide we are witnessing.
the dehumanization campaign is so complete that its acceptable to debate if 100s of thousands of oppressed and brutalized people deserve to be killed for their thoughts.
