Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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34391 Replies
I'm on record many times saying I didn't agree with bombing hospitals unless under some extraordinary circumstances but damn, does Gaza have the most hospitals per capita in the world by a magnitude or something? It's been like 20 months of weekly hospital bombings. Surprised they have anything left.
FWIW the attack he was talking about was a drone strike, not a bombing, where the drone literally flew into the room the Hamas guy was “praying” in (why a high ranking Hamas member was praying in a hospital I can’t tell you) to take him out.
I'm on record many times saying I didn't agree with bombing hospitals unless under some extraordinary circumstances but damn, does Gaza have the most hospitals per capita in the world by a magnitude or something? It's been like 20 months of weekly hospital bombings. Surprised they have anything left.
Seems when they pop their heads out of the tunnels Hamas members like to spend a lot of time in hospitals, schools and mosques. Probably figure good places to hide behind lots of civilian human shields.
Victor's posting is just complete nonsense. Although they are a giant potential 5th column should Israel's fortunes ever dim, there are millions of Arab Palestinians living mostly peacefully in Israel (minus the occasional religious terror attack, which is 90% Muslim on Jew) with more rights than they would have in pretty much any Arab country.
The only genocides that have actually taken place in MENA over the last 80 years is the genocide of Jews, and to a lesser extent Christians and other min
I remember seeing a list of deaths in various conflicts in the ME. Israel-Gaza conflict is low on that list in comparison. The Syrian civil war was big on the list.
Imo when it’s Arabs/Persians/Saudis/Turks killing each other, nobody in the West cares. It’s when Jews kill Palestinians that people care.
Anyway that’s not to say I support what Israel has done in this war, but I find it utterly ridiculous the double standards and the pearl clutching that happens when it’s a right-wing Israeli leader vs a right-wing non-Israeli leader.
Then they feel the need to justify their hatred of Israel by downplaying other powers like Hamas, Assad, Houthis, Hezbollah, IRGC, etc, and of course the logical conclusion of that is to downplay the Holocaust as being not as bad as the Israel-Gaza war. Mind you, Gaza is still its own independent nation 2 years out… Don’t remember the Jews having autonomy to have their own government with the only condition being they stop the terrorism and release German hostages!
I remember seeing a list of deaths in various conflicts in the ME. Israel-Gaza conflict is low on that list in comparison. The Syrian civil war was big on the list.
Imo when it’s Arabs/Persians/Saudis/Turks killing each other, nobody in the West cares. It’s when Jews kill Palestinians that people care.
It's when I'm paying for it that it makes me outrageously angry. You obviously have no idea what it's like to have money taken from you and used to execute crimes against humanity when those acts are at the top of the lists of things you would risk your life to stop and there is next to nothing effective you can do to stop it. I suppose I could leave the U.S. but I don't have any roots anywhere else. Believe me if the Saudi Royal family were executed I would be dancing around the house like a mad man. But at least they pay us.
I'm really worried one day I'm going to be debating this issue with someone somewhere and they are going to ask me why do I care what Israeli Jews do anyway more what other bad people do and I'm going to lose it.
IF YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE FOCUSED ON THE EVIL THINGS YOU ARE DOING THEN DON'T BEG FOR THEIR MONEY WITH WHICH TO DO IT. OR THEIR DIPLOMATIC SUPPORT OR THE ENTIRE CREDIBILITY OF THEIR COUNTRY.
DO IT YOUR DAMN SELF.
IF YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE FOCUSED ON THE EVIL THINGS YOU ARE DOING THEN DON'T BEG FOR THEIR MONEY WITH WHICH TO DO IT. OR THEIR DIPLOMATIC SUPPORT OR THE ENTIRE CREDIBILITY OF THEIR COUNTRY.
DO IT YOUR DAMN SELF.
I feel exactly the same way about the Palestinian cause. It sickens me that my tax dollars are used to fund their futile self-destructive Jihad to destroy Israel. I really wish the entire world would turn the spigot completely off until this entire attitude completely changed.
I actually think that if the world truly stopped supporting Palestinian belligerence, things would improve massively very quickly. I think we completely discount just how much "The Resistance" is propped up by outside actors with their own nefarious agendas, and how inorganic a cause it really is.
Guys in fairness, if 500k people volunteer to leave for better lives, the situation for all remaining people is infinitely better. The same donated dollars will go much farther. The density will ease.
That assumes the 500k truly volunteer, and are set to thrive elsewhere.
I said forcibly displaced. I never said anything about voluntary migration. If they're forcibly displaced then that's ethnic cleansing.
It's when I'm paying for it that it makes me outrageously angry. You obviously have no idea what it's like to have money taken from you and used to execute crimes against humanity when those acts are at the top of the lists of things you would risk your life to stop and there is next to nothing effective you can do to stop it. I suppose I could leave the U.S. but I don't have any roots anywhere else. Believe me if the Saudi Royal family were executed I would be dancing around the house like a ma
But it’s absolutely not that, though. Because when Assad was gassing his own civilians in a civil war that saw the death of hundreds of thousands (not theoretical future deaths but actual dead), I never saw lefties say that this was genocide. In fact very man of them said that we should not be concerned with what’s happening in that country.
Even if I grant you that Israel should not be receiving any kind of aid whatsoever from the US, that still doesn’t get you to calling it a genocide or saying it’s the worst thing since the holocaust since it’s not even close to the worst thing in the Middle East since the holocaust. It’s not nothing, it has been a horrific war with a terrible civilian cost. But the comparison between the reactions of the war compared to past wars has been telling.
Finally got around to watching No Other Land today. Had to find a way to download it since there’s no one willing to distribute it here.
It's very similar to Five Broken Cameras, an excellent film on Amazon Prime.
No Other Land is a great achievement and the criticism of it from the left is dogmatism.
I would feel a lot better about it if Yuval hadnt spread mass rape hoax propaganda and then refused to walk it back. but I do agree that some of the criticisms are impractical.
But it’s absolutely not that, though. Because when Assad was gassing his own civilians in a civil war that saw the death of hundreds of thousands (not theoretical future deaths but actual dead), I never saw lefties say that this was genocide. In fact very man of them said that we should not be concerned with what’s happening in that country.[...].
Civilians were dying from chemical weapons used by the Syrian regime, and from mass bombing of civilian infrastructure by Russian forces.
The people you refer to consisted / consists of a small but significant portion of actual "leftists" mixed with Russian shills, bots, and likely also plenty of crypto-fascists. They were too busy accusing the people looking for survivors in the rubble of being Nazis to consider the role of the Assad regime or the Russian government.
Of course, the catastrophic handling of the chemical weapons "red line" by the Obama administration was not good either. They basically painted themselves into a corner, and were subsequently check-mated by the Russian regime which used the "red line" as pretext to co-opt international intervention.
right and the Western backed ISIS/Al Qaeda/Al Nusra/HTS werent massacring civilians.
the US spent billions propping up some of the most extremist people on the planet so they could dismantle a sovereign and self sufficient country to steal its resources. truly one of the greatest crimes of our lifetime.
but white Western NATO supporters feel entitled to the resources of the world and require the submission of everyone.
and heres some more Western civilization for you
I saw things that I hadn’t seen before. Kinda makes Victor look like the arbiter of truth itt. Not gonna lie.
Violence begets violence. My understanding is that the 2nd Infintada especially, which featured tremendous levels of violent terrorism by Palestinian civilians aimed at Israeli civilians (especially women and children) hardened an entire generation of Israelis against Palestinians.
And this happened at a time when Israelis (at least in their own mind) were making real efforts and concessions to improve the lives of Palestinians, and were punished for it.
And the general point I have been trying to make is that the international community is mostly to blame for how we got here; through perverse incentive structures that facilitate 80 years of Palestinian violent "Resistance."
There is nothing wrong with acknowledging bad things are happening in the West Bank. The problem is thinking that putting al the onus on Israel, none on the Palestinians, and continuing the status quo incentive structure will produce better results. Because it wont.
That being said, there is a clear political solution Hamas can execute that would greatly benefit the Palestinian people. Hamas could give back the hostages and negotiate their leadership going into exile in Turkey/Qatar/etc. And as they have said they would, Egypt and the Sunni Gulf States would come in and take over security and rebuilding Gaza. For all his talk of the US rebuilding Gaza, I think it is pretty clear in a post Hamas world, Trump would hand the job over to Egypt and the Sunni
That's the closest itt that I've seen to a solution.
Hamas would have to do what many have done before: surrender when you've actually lost, for the sake of your civilian population. It should give people long pause to wonder why they don't. Even the Emperor of Japan eventually did.
A true Hamas surrender rebuilds Gaza, and people could have a real future there. Not THIS.
Violence begets violence. My understanding is that the 2nd Infintada especially, which featured tremendous levels of violent terrorism by Palestinian civilians aimed at Israeli civilians (especially women and children) hardened an entire generation of Israelis against Palestinians.
And this happened at a time when Israelis (at least in their own mind) were making real efforts and concessions to improve the lives of Palestinians, and were punished for it.
And the general point I have been trying
So you haven’t watched it either. That’s all you had to say, dude.
Civilians were dying from chemical weapons used by the Syrian regime, and from mass bombing of civilian infrastructure by Russian forces.
The people you refer to consisted / consists of a small but significant portion of actual "leftists" mixed with Russian shills, bots, and likely also plenty of crypto-fascists. They were too busy accusing the people looking for survivors in the rubble of being Nazis to consider the role of the Assad regime or the Russian government.
Of course, the catastrophic
Yes the mass use of chemical weapons to eliminate certain undesirable parts of the population. But instead of saying it was a genocide, leftists said the chemical weapons attacks didn’t happen, at least a great deal of them.
You did have many on the left try to come out against that, and they were called CIA apologists for their trouble.
right and the Western backed ISIS/Al Qaeda/Al Nusra/HTS werent massacring civilians.
the US spent billions propping up some of the most extremist people on the planet so they could dismantle a sovereign and self sufficient country to steal its resources. truly one of the greatest crimes of our lifetime.
but white Western NATO supporters feel entitled to the resources of the world and require the submission of everyone.
Victor, thanks for coming in with all the typical excuses for the Assad regime. We can always count on crazy lefties violating their own principles to prop up insane genocidal dictators because they are “self-sufficient” lol
bro, you support ISIS. and Israel. you support genocidal extremism in every form.
It doesn't surprise me that Victor is a strong supporter of NK as well as after all they are fighting with Russia against Ukraine too.
It is time for Hamas to lay down their arms as it is clear now the IDF is about to begin a period of permanent occupancy of Gaza to rid the area of all Hamas militants and will do whatever it takes now after they failed to live up to their side of the deal for hostages.
Since when do I support ISIS? You’re projecting the fact that you support Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, IRGC because you’re against Israel onto me.
As for Israel being genocidal, weird how the 200k+ figure that lefties were quoting never materialized and it just got barely over 50k deaths reported a few days ago. Also weird how the mass starvation we were telling you would not happen due to Israeli coordinated aid didn’t happen.
Almost like every prediction that should be true on the genocide theory is not materializing.
Since when do I support ISIS? You’re projecting the fact that you support Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, IRGC because you’re against Israel onto me.
As for Israel being genocidal, weird how the 200k+ figure that lefties were quoting never materialized and it just got barely over 50k deaths reported a few days ago. Also weird how the mass starvation we were telling you would not happen due to Israeli coordinated aid didn’t happen.
Almost like every prediction that should be true on the genocide theory
Israel is not providing aid, it is completely cut off to encourage people to leave.
The 50,000 figure is for identified bodies known to the Gaza health ministry. The people buried in the rubble, and who will die of dysentery and myriad other causes, are not included in that.
And note that the predictions of ethnic cleansing are being fulfilled:
The Jews are also using space lasers to evaporate Gazans so there aren’t bodies. Who knows what the real number is? Might as well make it up.
