LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

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Three lessons proven by stats itt:

1) MJ's scoring rate and volume increased in the triangle

2) Kobe led the Lakers in scoring for the 01' and 02' Western Playoffs, so he was 1st option on those title runs, since the Finals were foregone conclusions.

3) Luka and Lebron cannot play off-ball by virtue of them having 100% assisted rates in their last game, yet they couldn't generate sufficient shot-volume as off-ball players to keep up with the worst team in the West.

Lebron created the Warriors and Spurs dynasties by losing to them so many times.

And it's simply the height of stupidity to say "b-b-but 4 rings doh", when we all know he put the top 3 PER's on 1 team to win (Big 3) - that's a joke and some WWE crap, yet he still only went 2/4 and 4/22.. That's horrible given the help that he had.. 100+ guys would've done better..

Most people know that a guy like Nash would fit like a glove with Wade/Bosh and go at least 3/4 or 4/4.. Otoh, Lebron had 1 sixty-win season from 11' to 16' despite preseason favorites and 2 all-star teammates each year - the bad regular seasons caused the fall from preseason favorite to underdog, thus creating the fake "underdog in every Finals" narrative..

So there's never been a bigger fraud in sports history - a beta, choking perennial loser with huge weaknesses in his game purported as the goat.. (FT's, turnovers, offensive rebounding, clutch efficiency, chemistry/ball movement, uncoachable/coaching carousal).

Goat are about ACCOMPLISHMENTS, failure is meh .
And we aren’t even talking about goat, we are talking top 10 ?!?!?! .
Lebron certainly accomplished enough to be top 10 .
Again find me a player that accomplish as much or more then Lebron not being top 10 then will talk .

Hanging on for extra years to get meaningless accolade means nothing - frequency is what matters, and Lebron has the lowest championship frequency of any top 10 candidate.. Maybe Wilt's is around the same.

Even though Lebron is playing a lot more years, many guys have equal or more rings like MJ, Kareem, Magic, Russell, Kobe, Shaq, Curry, Duncan, Russell, and Mikan, while Wade should have 4 as well.. Meanwhile, guys like MJ, Giannis and Hakeem won MVP and DPOY in the same season, or Jokic has better numbers, or Shaq and MJ won MVP and 1st team defense and scoring title in same year.. Accordingly, many guys peaked higher.

Finally, since Lebron's skillset produces bad chemistry, he might have no rings without hand-picking extra talent, such as opposing franchise players and 6 straight preseason favorites - no one ever had more than 3 straight.

Lebron's career and top accolades like rings isn't top 10 caliber when you consider the help that he had and the essential cheating that was required to get him his first chips... Lebron's collusions confirm that no ball-dominator can be top 10 because their skillset of bad chemistry cannot win titles without unprecedented deck-stacking.. Ball-dominators have low assist teams that make it harder to win, and they never produce the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions).

Curry has 1 final mvp and u think that equals 4 of LeBron ….
On top of that To put curry in top 10 with massive defensive liabilities and not put LeBron in is brain dead .
What you think would of happen to curry if KD join LeBron instead ?
Nothing more to add.

That's by far his biggest blind spot: He can't even conceptualize defense.

That's why Pippen is a scrub while Mo Williams and Antwan Jamison are the bee's knees, and Steve Nash would win more than LeBron if substituted.

Good job pushing another #1 Jordan poster away from your positions FG, really top notch work.

Seeing all the pro-Jordan posters turn on fallguy due to his sheer insanity warms my heart.

♥

Looks like MJ was actually shooting a bit more per minute played in 91 title team as compared to the 90 lose to Pistons in 7 team, counteracting what Jackson is saying here. Or maybe he just meant reducing his shots versus the Pistons in the playoffs, which indeed holds up by about 6 shots a game (24 to 18) comparing 1990 to 91. Phil's The Man ... should have known he wasn't BSing.

I can see you guys smiling about that when Montreal suddenly spouted all your talking points.

But despite being pretty funny, it was also a little disappointing to see him collapse and bow down like that - he suddenly turned into a Klutch rep by insisting that Jordan averaged less in the triangle even though his scoring rate, FGA, usage, peak ppg, rpg, apg, and overall burden went up, as the links show... And then he suddenly treated Lebron's super-teams like they were completely normal and the results impressive.. It was quite remarkable, as if he was hypnotized prior to posting or something.

Regardless, we'll all watch as Luka and Lebron struggle to decide how to play - their collective "goat IQ's" on full display as they change their mind from game to game - initially, they'll try the whole "let Reaves run the show and we'll play off him like we're 2 Karl Malones", but they'll end up back in their wheelhouse and something that amounts to a version of your-turn-my-turn.

So we know what's going to happen, and we have an efficient way of monitoring the action and seeing how they play each game (assisted rate) due to the research and vetting of myself, Matt and others.. Watch the full games if you must, but I get more insight just by knowing their assisted rate then you get watching the whole game.. This wouldn't be the case for guys like Curry or MJ that have around 50% assisted rate, but it does for low-assisted ball-dominators that know they're screwed if they continue with their suboptimal style.

The best players on a team don't have to be great defenders, which is why Curry, Bird, Jokic and others had teams that could play historic defense.

Generational offensive talents that can carry the scoring load against top teams and Finals teams can be surrounded by cheap defenders, while guys that can't carry the scoring load (ball-dominators like Lebron) need expensive offensive help, thus reducing the space to sign good defenders.. This is what we see with Lebron's teams.. Since he can't carry the scoring load, his teams need so much offensive help that they can't fill out the roster with good role-playing defenders..

And we know why he can't carry the scoring load against top teams - he's too ball-dominant as his scoring levels increase, so he needs all-time scorers that can match him in scoring.. Otoh, Curry and MJ drop 40 while the ball moves, so they can beat top teams while carrying the scoring load and therefore win with less scoring help (which in turn allows better defensive help).

In addition to failing to carry the scoring load and therefore needing more defensive help, ball-dominators lose the attrition battle (they let defenses rest), so they face fresh opponents that haven't been worn down by a good brand of ball - fresh opponents means that Lebron's teams have max defensive requirements.. Otoh, Curry, Jokic, Bird and MJ wear down the opponent with zippy ball movement, so their defensive requirements are less.

i would expect that perhaps a teammate miracle would be required to produce 2/4, just like Wade/Bosh... something like that...

And we saw basically nothing with "perfect fit" AD, and zero 60-win seasons with prime Kyrie/Love, so I don't expect much with KD, who didn't do much with other great ball-dominators like Westbrook or Harden...

So again, nothing much for KD/Lebron.... Otoh, Curry's great brand of ball produced the goat team with KD in many people's minds...

MJ's shot attempts and scoring rate increased in the triangle:

PER 100 POSSESSIONS

Regular Season

85-89' MJ........ 41.5 pts... 29.5 FGA
90-93' MJ........ 42.0 pts... 31.1 FGA


Playoffs

85-89' MJ........ 42.9 pts... 29.7 FGA
90-93' MJ........ 44.4 pts... 33.4 FGA

MJ shot more in the triangle and scored the same per game, or even higher when the Finals are included:

PER GAME

Regular Season

85-89' MJ........ 32.6 PPG and 23.3 FGA
90-93' MJ........ 31.9 PPG and 23.7 FGA


Playoffs

85-89' MJ........ 35.4 PPG and 24.5 FGA
90-93' MJ........ 34.3 PPG and 25.8 FGA


Finals

91-93' MJ........ 36.3 PPG and 27.4 FGA

In addition to higher scoring rate and FGA, Jordan's usage, APG and RPG were higher in the triangle, so his burden was simply higher in the triangle and it's a myth that the triangle corraled him - MJ carried the Bulls' offense more with the triangle than without.

This means that when Phil said that MJ wouldn't be scoring champ anymore in the triangle, he didn't know what he was talking about and therefore just got lucky with MJ... Specifically, history shows that MJ built a lottery cast to the 2nd-best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs (before Phil arrived), so Phil simply inherited the steepest trajectory in the league and an impending dynasty AFTER jordan did all the heavy lifting

It’s ok to believe best players top 10 don’t need to play D because D is overrated.
That mj accomplishment in D is meaningless for him to be the goat .
I don’t believe so but you do you .

And u can say w.e you want with « if » and what should be .
Lebron did won 4 title and was the best player , period .
Whotf care if he was subpar , it worked for him to have more mvp final then many top 10 players you enumerated.
If they were so great and LeBron so bad , how come they accomplish less ?

Yes, MJ's defense is an overrated component of his goat credentials - his ability to carry the scoring load and therefore be surrounded by cheap defenders allowed much better defensive teams than his own individual defense could ever provide..

Accordingly, the ability of the 1st option to carry the scoring load is much more valuable to a team's defense than the actual defense of the 1st option.. The defense of the cheap role players is actually more important... Since the individual defense of the best players isn't critical, we can confirm that Pippen is a vastly overrated player.

Regarding your last question of "If they were so great and Lebron so bad, how come they accomplish less ?".... The answer is in the historical record - when Lebron had "normal" casts of 1 franchise player like everyone else, he did nothing through 7 seasons... Therefore, the only reason that he accumulated more rings than most peers is because of his "decision" to put the top 3 PER's on 1 team - the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team.. That's the only reason most peers accomplished less, like you asked.

Yeah …. Shaq and Kobe with 3 rings is over expectations right ?
Smh

You can find many errors in LeBron games that Is fine , but you can’t take out what he accomplished and not many did more , certainly not 10 players ….
It’s that simple !

Ps: if carrying the load as the number 1 is the only thing that matter and nvm D , it’s wilt the goat —> 50 ppg /25 rbn for a season .

3-peat is better than 2 chips that were sandwiched between the goat choke and record loss.

And Wilt averaged 22 PPG in the playoffs (12 less than MJ)

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1989 Playoffs

Bad Boys vs Playoff Opponents........ 11-0
Bad Boys vs Chicago Bulls................... 4-2*

* pippen missed the closeout game 6, and averaged 9.7 on 40% overall in ECF (14/6/3 in regular season)

After being surprised at how well MJ returned from injury in the 86' Playoffs, management started over and gave MJ a new lottery cast in 87', which MJ built into the 2nd-best team by the end of the 89' Playoffs before Phil arrived.. Essentially, Phil was handed an impending dynasty, since MJ already built the 2nd-best team and steepest trajectory (despite not having any 15 ppg scorers)... And by employing a "lose, try again" approach and therefore getting better at actual basketball instead of additions of talent, the Bulls became the greatest team ever.

Also, MJ's development of the Bulls to the 2nd-best team and steepest trajectory before Phil arrived speaks to the surprise-firing of Doug Collins, which is a forgotten piece of history - it's why people don't realize what Phil inherited (an impending dynasty)..

Phil's luck is further confirmed by seeing how he thought MJ's numbers would go down in the triangle, but his scoring rate and volume increased, so Phil's vision was wrong and got carried by MJ... Essentially, "Slick Phil" preemptively took credit for the impending titles by proclaiming that MJ would be corraled and wouldn't carry the team anymore... This fraud largely succeeded because no one noticed that MJ's burden went up in the triangle.

Accordingly, it shows luck that Phil's vision of a muffled MJ was wrong, coupled with him inheriting the 2nd best team and steepest trajectory in the league.. He was very lucky to have the goat or his clone become the only guys to win with the triangle.

We can measure how impressive MJ was by noting that Bird and Magic needed super-teams to barely hang with the Bad Boys, while MJ was equally-competitive with no help before Phil arrived.. Once MJ got 15-20 points and 5 assists from his sidekick like Kyrie for example in the 24' Finals, he went 6/6 and became the goat.

Doesn’t matter unless u blame mj defeats when he faced amazing team in the 80s with an inferior team ?
wilt lost 4 times in 7th vs Boston with an inferior team most of the time .
But hey it’s wilt fault ?

Is rookie year lost in 6 vs Boston -> 30ppg/27 rbn/ 2 ass Wilt fault ?
Second year -> 37ppg/23 rbn /2ass Wilt fault ?
3rd season lost in 7 vs Boston -> 33 ppg/26 rbn / 2ass. Will fault ?
5th season Lost in 7th vs Boston -> 30 ppg/ 31 rbn /3 ass. Wilt fault ?
6th season lost in 5 vs Boston -> example of a game he lost :
46 pts/ 34 rbn / 1ass and he lost !! Wtf you want him to do ?
Isn’t carrying the load vs a better team ?
While doing it vs maybe the greatest defender ever and still he crushed him …but lost -> wilt fault , smh .

Fallguy,
Is Bill Russell still your #2 GOAT? You know, the highly assisted 1st option that carried the scoring load.

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it's okay guys - they just need a closer

All the games you listed were only 30 points or so from Wilt - that doesn't compare to Jordan averaging 40+ in 5 different series - Jordan scored 40 points in 1 of 5 playoff games for his career and he was more likely to score over 50 than under 20 - let that sink in..... If Jordan needed to average 40 against superior roster like the 93' Suns or 89' Cavs (#1 SRS), then he did it... He averaged 44 against Boston too but the roster gap was far too big.. Otoh, Wilt couldn't do these kinds of things in "adjustment basketball" (playoffs).. His 27 rebounds mean little because any role player can be a great rebounder.. The only thing the 1st option needs to do is carry the scoring load and Wilt couldn't do it like MJ in the playoffs, so he lost a lot with all-stars, while MJ nearly always won.

I didn't watch the game, but the boxscore shows another 14 from Kevin Love tonight, I mean Luka... 37% assisted rate from Luka and 40% from Lebron, which means "your-turn-my-turn", aka losing basketball.

And no closer of course, hence the collapse in the finals possessions.

Again, I didn't watch the game, but how far off could I be.. These 2 guys have the most predictable games ever that fosters weak chemistry, so they need exorbitant talent.

Try to enjoy the rest of the season and carnage as best you can.. Feel free to refer to the prophecies contained throughout the thread for insight and guidance.

Fallguy,
We acknowledge that Luka has been injured, hasn’t played since December, and isn’t fully integrated into the team yet so he’s not playing at his former all-NBA level right this moment.

But anyway, I think you missed the above post. I am curious if you still have Bill Russell as your #2 GOAT since he’s known for his highly assisted #1 option volume scoring and his defense does not matter. Let me know what your thoughts are on that.

The Laker post-game show said it best - they should be able to beat a team that only scores 100 points.. Unfortunately, that's the offensive punch that you get when you pair the 2 biggest ball-dominators and low-chemistry guys together on 1 team.. We already saw this with Westbrook.

And Luka hasn't had 2 straight games of 16 or less since 2021, so I'm not sure he EVER had 3 straight games like he's just had... There was no minutes restriction and the injury is long-healed - Lebron simply won't let him shine... It's hilarious and perfect.

Regarding the top 10 rankings and Russell... You might have a point, so I'm fine with leaving him at #2 due to the historical context, or putting him at #13, since he's a secondary scorer and defender - this would move Magic up to #10.

Remember that it's only the high-scoring ball-dominators that have high volume of unassisted buckets, which starts the domino effect of teammates in spot-up roles and lower team assist rankings over time... But I don't think Magic fits this profile because he wasn't a high scorer and had the most #1 assist teams ever.. Kareem's high assisted rates certainly contributed to this, but Magic's assisted rate was probably decent too because of his frequent post domination and getting kickouts from Kareem.. I think it was around 40-45% because teams simply didn't employ today's ball-dominant style and the lack of spacing didn't allow dawdling with the ball... This is why I had him ahead of pure ball-dominators with low assisted rate like Lebron and Oscar to begin with.. Many people think he's equal or better than Lebron due to superior ring count and being the goat passer and leader.