LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

worst-ever post skills by Lebron and spot-up role imposed on Luka

^^^ bullshit.

Luka has been reduced from the 2nd-best player in the NBA to 14 on 36%, with 21% on threes so far.. This confirms that Lebron's skill restriction to ball-domination destroys teammates for all the reasons mentioned itt.

I don't think ive ever been rooting for an American sports team to win a championship more than i am rooting for the Lakers in 2025

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Recently confirmed things itt:

1) The biggest weakness in Lebron's game is that he cannot play off teammates well - unlike the delusions of many fans, it's clear that he ISN'T playing the "karl malone role" alongside Luka, and cannot play in the triangle, or any ball movement system like the teams that destroy him (Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, Mavs, Magic).. Every series loss of Lebron's playoff career had deficits in team assists, except the goat choke in the 11' Finals.

2) Lebron has destroyed Luka, which proves once and for all that his skill restriction to ball-dominance produces the worst chemistry and fits ever - this worst-ever chemistry produces a lottery record on the championship level regardless of cast (20-21 excluding 07', 15', 18)

3) Phil Jackson was more lucky than good, since he didn't really know what he was talking about, i.e. his vision of the triangle muffling MJ was wrong, since MJ's burden increased in the triangle across the board (scoring rate, volume, rpg, apg) - Phil also inherited an impending dynasty after Jordan had already built the Bulls to the 2nd best team and steepest trajectory in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs.

Luka's skillset requires the ball and therefore a closer to pass to... Ditto Lebron.. So they cannot provide each other with the thing each other's skillset needs/lacks... They simply cannot fit, and this is the reason they only muster 97 points and their offense is dogshit - it's because of Lebron's worst-ever fits and chemistry... And Luka's... It's a double-whammy of horrific, stat-padding basketball.. I would recommend you do something else for the next couple months rather than torture yourself with the worst basketball, chemistry and fit that the game has ever seen.

Again, it's clear that lebron ISN'T playing the "karl malone role" alongside Luka, and cannot play in the triangle, or any ball movement system like the teams that destroy him (Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, Mavs, Magic).. Every series loss of Lebron's playoff career had deficits in team assists, except the goat choke in the 11' Finals... I've been trying to tell Matt for a while now that the skillset of the 1st option dictates what the coach can do, so Reddick is in coach's hell right now - coach's prison - handcuffed by the 2 biggest ball-monopolizers of all-time.

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imagine thinking this was the best basketball that anyone has ever seen:

not the closer Luka needs... 😆

Lebron's weaknesses are:

* offensive rebounding
* FT's
* turnovers
* "closing" or clutch efficiency
* mid-range (to shoot over the packed paints of 80's/90's)
* ball-dominance
* young player development (turns teammates into spot-up shooter and lowers their assists)
* Low assist teams (ball movement)
* chemistry/fits/teammate performance

Wow I just saw that Luka has the option to not re-sign in August and could leave LA if he wants.. So Lebron's suboptimal ball-dominance will literally destroy the greatest franchise in sports history... It just keeps getting better.. So if Lebron truly "played 5 positions" or could play the "karl malone role", you would think that he would've ALREADY been doing it.. But he obviously can't, just like I said, for all the reasons I said, so I've won the thread - too many unfolding events are confirming it.

The Luka move upside is about post Lebron decade if they can keep him, is it not? So like he can stand there and dribble after the king. But mostly so they have the marquis guy they need. Doesn't matter so much how they jell for a year or so. I also think they will make a run this year.

Imagine thinking a guy with :
4 nba title
4 mvp final. (Only 1 guy has more )
4 mvp (Only 2 players has more )
13 nba first team (the most)
5 times nba all defensive 1st team ( same has Kareem and Hakeem)
1 time scoring champion
1 time nba assist leader
With a comfortable range of 27/7/7 in career stats

Isn’t enough to be top 10 ….

The fact that it isn't an automatic dynasty and 5 straight titles after adding the 2nd-best player in the league is why Lebron isn't a top 10- all-time player.. And it doesn't matter that he's 40 because 26-year old Lebron already flopped after adding the #2 player when he had the goat choke and record loss bookend a win over babies and a teammate bailout.

At least 10 guys in history would have a dynasty with Luka and the fact that Lebron doesn't and they stink proves that he's vastly overrated - just a ball-dominator that lacks the IQ, instinct or skill to fit with other ballhandlers or 3rd scorers.

Finally, getting swept in the 1st Round or the conference finals like Lebron did the last 2 years doesn't add to a goat case.. And it will be a black mark to lose with Luka in any capacity.. "Making a run" is something about 8 teams will do this year and means literally nothing except to keep you watching until the inevitable 2nd Round sweep loss or any loss at any point.

Nobody would win anything with the garbage Doncic performances in his 3 Laker games. They had to play without him so they could go back to winning.

When he had "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player like everyone else, he did nothing and lost catastrophically, which forced him to start teaming up with opponents... This made his career joke thereafter, so 4 chips with the unprecedented roster-stacking and help that he's had isn't top 10 all-time.. This is objectively true.

He had literally 40 all-star teammates in his career yet only 4 titles, and he also had the 2nd best player in the league 3 different times (11', 20', 25')... Yet only 4 titles in 23 years - it's pathetic - his ring count is pathetic every time you mention it - his ring count hurts his case.. Winning and producing great teams is his Achilles heel.

Btw, notice how I haven't mentioned media awards or how Lebron wasn't MVP or all-defense in his 30's and for the last 10 years.. I don't mention these things because media awards mean literally nothing - they're the opinion of a few dozen journalism majors that get literally everything wrong.. So your entire case falls down because 1) who cares about media awards and 2) Lebron's ring count is a black mark given his unprecedented help and need for abnormal rosters (multiple franchise players instead of just 1 like everyone else has).

History shows that Doncic only plays that badly alongside Lebron because he hasn't had 3 games in a row like that ever...

This is just like Westbrook - Westbrook played well and made the playoffs with everyone except Lebron... Same thing with Love, Bosh, Wade, and other bad fits - they only looked bad with Lebron...

Similarly, Luka played great with Kyrie, Brunson and Porzingas, so only Lebron is a horrific fit because that's what Lebron does - that's his game - he skillset is bad fits and a stat-padding style, so he has low team ceilings/Finals records and perennially-loses with every roster (never a great team).

Highly-assisted skillsets like Kareem, MJ, Curry, Jokic and others never had a bad fit with anyone, so a dynasty would be the standard expectation for them after teaming up with the #2 player like 2025 Luka or 2011 Wade (and 2020 AD had a case for #2 or #3 player)...

But instead of dynasties, Lebron mostly lost after teaming up with the #2 player on three different occasions.. 1 for 6 with AD is worse than 50 other guys would do, and so is failing to have a dynasty with Wade or Luka.. Unfortunately, Lebron lacks the IQ, instinct and skills to play off Luka and fit with him, as required to have a contender, let alone a dynasty like the aforementioned players would, or like the real GOAT would..

We know that a good fit requires Lebron to play off Luka because Luka's fat ass obviously cannot play effectively off-ball - it must be the Luka show to get elite production out of him... Ditto Lebron, so they're screwed.. This is why ball-dominators have the worst skillset and are behind all the best bigs and jumpshooters (outside the top 10 all-time).

Weren’t waiting long: only 40+ age player in NBA history with multiple games of 40+ points.

Thanks. So since another player (Bill Russell, in this case) can shift from #2 to #13, or vice versa, based on arbitrary feelings, this is further proof that your criteria for ranking players is ambiguous to the point of being meaningless. You are only applying this strange filter of >40% assisted fg%, career average only, high volume scorer strictly to LeBron James, so you can make up the rankings as you see fit. “Reverse engineering” as you put it.

That you don’t understand that this is a fallacy is not something we can fix, but it does prove definitively that everything you say is meaningless.

So Lebron lacks the IQ and skill to play with Luka

or Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, Love, Bosh, Jamison, and dozens more

it's SO bad that Luka isn't allowed to play at all.

so it's even worse than I've been saying

got it

Lebron will never reach 43 points at 40 years old, let alone 43 of 89 points against the #1 defense in the league - that will always be the goat standard..

Otoh, scoring 40 of 120 points against the worst team means little in reality, and only something in the fake world that's been invented to prop up LeFraud.

Russell has always has been the exception in everyone's rankings, and the reality is that we shouldn't include the 60's in the rankings because it was a different game entirely - most people agree with this.. Specifically, every MVP since the 3-point line was instituted in 1980 was a historically-dominant offensive player, so Russell wouldn't be MVP caliber in 3-pointer basketball.. But again, there's historical context regarding that particular time period of the 60's and the struggles of blacks, so Russell is given credit for winning during that time period.

Regardless of Russell's unique case, you weren't able affect the ball-domination or assisted rate argument because it's the historical record that I was informing you of.. There was no debate to be had and we only needed to flesh out the details, so I thank you for your work.

Again, every player in history with under 40% assisted rate is a primary ballhandler and the high-scoring ones (ball-dominators) have high volume of unassisted buckets that impose spot-up roles and produce lower assist teams than the typical champion - this horrible dynamic of spot-up roles and low assist teams are the Achilles' heel of ball-dominators because every series loss of Lebron's playoff career showed deficits in team assists (except the goat choke in 2011).,. Meanwhile, the spot-up roles yielded zero young player development, thereby requiring ready-made stars... In addition to bad chemistry, zero young player development and low assist teams that rarely win, ball-dominators can't produce the BEST basketball as 1st option, such as dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12).. Since ball-dominators win less often and never produce the best basketball, they're behind the top players of other skillsets that do, such as the bigs and jumpshooters - this puts Lebron out of the top 10 all-time.

It's intuitive that the skillset with the worst-ever young player development, chemistry, winning frequency, and team ceilings/Finals records cannot be top 10 all-time.. This worst-ever chemistry produced the most losses ever with favored rosters such as preseason favorites (4) and Finals teams (6), while also having losing records with every type of good roster, such as preseason favorites (3-4), Finals teams (4-6), all-star teammates (4-7), 1 or 2 seeds (4-5) and 3 losses with homecourt.. It's a horrific record of mostly losing with good rosters and the biggest underuse of talent ever... You can't go 1 for 6 with a rich man's Pippen (AD), while the goat standard is to win 6 in 7 years and go 6 for 6 in the Finals.. You can't go 1 for 4 with Love or catastrophic losses with Wade and tell everyone that this is the best basketball that we've ever seen.. It's obvious fraud and misreporting by the media.. We've seen this in politics too - it ends in disaster.

That’s pretty amazing that the Boston Celtics, who were not led by a highly assisted, high scoring volume jump shooter, but by an elite defensive anchor with an entirely different skill set, were able to win 11 championships in 13 years.

It is also amazing that LeBron James’ teams were able to win 3 championships in 5 years (2012, 2013, and 2016), your definition of a dynasty, while being led by a point forward whose assisted rate was sometimes below, sometimes above, 40%. And without having an all-time coach like Phil Jackson that employed a high ball movement motion offense.

Maybe other things matter to winning basketball besides assisted fg%, the statistic that is sometimes negatively correlated to team wins? I think it would be a good idea to incorporate these mathematical, historical facts into your argument and player rankings, so you appear to others as less stupid and/or crazy.

Last night's game shows that all of Lebron's 2's in the halfcourt were unassisted and his 3's were assisted, so he was just spotting up for threes as Reaves dominated the ball, and then it was your-turn-my-turn to get the rest of his points on 2-pointers.

It's predictable crap that barely beat the worst team in the West and will get historically destroyed in the playoffs, just like 2014, 2017 and 2011 - these were record losses or chokes despite 2 all-star teammates, which Lebron has now because Reaves is clearly an All-NBA-caliber player.. Tomorrow night will provide a nice glimpse into the upcoming playoffs.

Perhaps the Lakers offensive scheme will improve by the end of the year, or perhaps not — they do have a rookie coach in JJ Redick so it may not be straightforward to fix.

Oh you were blaming the scheme on LeBron James again? The one player on the court that we have proven mathematically contributes far more to team assists than MJ and Kobe? That’s unfortunate — I guess you are incapable of learning from your mistakes even when I am teaching you directly. That is the definition of a lost cause. Carry on with your word salad then.

Lebron lowers all his teammates' assists, so his teams only average 15th in assists for his career (8th for the average champion):

ASSISTS PER GAME AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT LEBRON:

12-14' Kyrie............... 5.8
15-17' Kyrie............... 5.3 (with Lebron)
18-24' Kyrie............... 5.8

04-10' Bosh............... 2.2
11-14' Bosh............... 1.6 (with Lebron)
15-16' Bosh............... 2.3

11-14' Love................ 3.0
15-18' Love................ 2.1 (with Lebron)
19-21' Love................ 2.8

05-08' Mo................... 5.7
09-10' Mo................... 4.6 (with Lebron)
11-13' Mo................... 5.3

09-10' Chalmers........ 4.2
11-14' Chalmers........ 3.6 (with Lebron)

99-04' Snow................ 6.9
06-07' Snow................ 4.1 (with Lebron)

01-05' Hughes........... 3.8
06-08' Hughes........... 3.3 (with Lebron)

2018 Ingram.............. 3.9
2019 Ingram.............. 3.0 (with Lebron)
20-25' Ingram............ 5.2

2019 Kuzma............... 2.5 (with Lebron)
22-25' Kuzma............. 3.8

2018 Ball..................... 7.2
2019 Ball..................... 5.4 (with Lebron)
20-22' Ball................... 6.1

00-09' Jamison........... 1.8
2010 Jamison............. 1.3 (with Lebron)
11-12' Jamison........... 1.9

04-10' Wade............... 6.6
11-14' Wade............... 4.7 (with Lebron)

19-22' D-Lo................. 6.7
23-25' D-Lo................. 6.2 (with Lebron)

09-21' Westbrook....... 8.5
2022 Westbrook..........7.1 (with Lebron)

15-18'' KCP.................. 2.0
19-21' KCP................... 1.6 (with Lebron)
22-25' KCP................... 2.2

STATISTICAL FACT: there's a negative correlation between a teammate's higher assisted rate (spot-up roles) and their assists - Lebron's imposition of spot-up roles craters teammates' assists and cause low assist teams..
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2010 Wade...... 28 PER... 9.2 BPM*
2010 Kobe....... 21 PER... 4.4 BPM

* Wade was #2 in league for PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP

50 players in history would have a dynasty with the 2nd best player in the league like Luka, yet Lebron can't even be on the same floor with him..

The fact that Lebron cannot play with Luka means he isn't GOAT or anywhere near... He lacks the IQ and skill to play with Luka.

Most all-time greats would mostly win and produce dynasties after teaming up with the #2 player like Lebron did in 2011, 2020 and 2025, but Lebron perennially-lost and never produced a dynasty.

Lebron went 1 for 6 with a rich man's Pippen like AD... At least 50 players in NBA history would match or exceed that, let alone MJ.

This confirmed that Lebron is nowhere near GOAT, even without considering the other examples where he got "help" but perennially-lost and failed to get anywhere near the goat caliber of 3-peats, 70 wins, or quality MVP's (MVP + scoring champ and 1st team defense).

Heck, he couldn't even win 60 games with prime Kyrie/Love and history reveals the obvious fraud - 1 sixty-win season with 2 all-star teammates from 11' to 16' caused a fall from preseason favorite to underdog each year, thereby creating the "underdog in every Finals" fraud.. You simply fell for a fraud and are in denial