LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
And remember, every high-scoring primary ballhandler (ball-dominator) sees their time of possession increase by 25-100% in the playoffs, so the current Luka/Bron fit will get worse, assuming they make the playoffs.
Miller did more than Tatum, such as taking teams to the Finals with no help in 00', or nearly beating the Bulls with no help in 98', or beating the Knicks with no help.. He was more dominant than Tatum, as the numbers show... (And when I say "no help", I mean that many good teams back then had "no help" because teams became great based on chemistry back then - this includes the Bulls, who had the same lottery roster from 89' but they sim
The losing argument is , how many rings Miller got compare to Tatum ?
Yup result do no that matter in your world .
Another example of a “great”’ player that creates the best team in your opinion while never won anything ….
Not even half a career of Miller , Tatum was already 3 times allnba1 .
Ah yes , those votes don’t count anymore am I right FG ?
So now Reggie won 'with the least star help ever'. (?) While being outscored by Jalen Rose similar to LeBron being 'carried' by AD.
Wtf is up with you?
Miller is lying because MJ was the primary defender on all point guards like Magic, Payton and Isiah, or dominant wings like Drexler, while Pippen couldn't handle point guards or quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe
So quotes by old school players by you = gold and factual
Quotes by same group of players by me = they're liars
Ok, sure. Very convincing.
What does this mean?
That team was extremely deep (they were 3rd in the East preseason odds, then won 56 games). And Tatum actually won the title.
We all know that if the reverse was true how the narrative would shift. Everything is backwards engineering based on whatever you want to 'prove' atm.
In general it's: tear down Jordan's teammates while propping up his era, and propping up LeBron's teammates while tearing down his era. Again, it's obvious to everyone what motivates you and your opinio
Sort of a self own saying Miller was a one man band. The only team that took the 2nd 3-peat bulls to 7 games only had one star. And, if you are talking superstars, not a very good one.
The losing argument is , how many rings Miller got compare to Tatum ?
Yup result do no that matter in your world .
Another example of a “great”’ player that creates the best team in your opinion while never won anything ….
Not even half a career of Miller , Tatum was already 3 times allnba1 .
Ah yes , those votes don’t count anymore am I right FG ?
Miller is top 75 and great arguments can be made that put him over Tatum.
Since the best current American player might not be better than Reggie Miller, this proves how much worse American basketball is than previous eras.
Sort of a self own saying Miller was a one man band. The only team that took the 2nd 3-peat bulls to 7 games only had one star. And, if you are talking superstars, not a very good one.
It happens - teams going for three-peat will have some slogs with various teams along the way
It's a testament to Reggie Miller's greatness.. It confirms that he's top 75.
Ultimately, since the best current American player might not be better than Reggie Miller, this proves how much worse American basketball is than previous eras.
So quotes by old school players by you = gold and factual
Quotes by same group of players by me = they're liars
Ok, sure. Very convincing.
I provided the proof of the lie - he said the Bulls were a 1-man team when he was actually facing the Bulls.
Everyone thought the 90's Bulls were a 1-man team and the stats show that there's never been more of a 1-man team..
So quotes by old school players by you = gold and factual
Quotes by same group of players by me = they're liars
Ok, sure. Very convincing.
There's a reason that America is ranked at the bottom educationally.... It's because large masses of Americans are dumb enough to think that out of the billions of players in the history of basketball, Pippen is the only one that the best player ever could win with.
If Pippen is the one guy out of billions that MJ could win with, then MJ isn't a top 100,000 player.... You or I are better than him because we could win if we played 10 MPG and were surrounded by Russell, Wilt, Kobe and Curry... Meanwhile, MJ could only win with Pippen - what a great "zinger" for the GOAT, smh... So clever.
Otoh, in contrast to Miller playing to the lowest common denominator of American intellect, the article from nba.com shown in the previous post shows how Miller REALLY felt about MJ in 1991 (also here) - everyone thought the 90's Bulls were a 1-man team and the stats show that there's never been more of a 1-man team..
This just shows how little you know about basketball. Indiana's strength was it's depth. Miller was barely a Top 15 player at the time.
What world is Tatum not tracking to be better than Miller?
At 26 Tatum is an NBA Champ (good chance to repeat), will be Top 6 finisher in the MVP for the 4th straight time and will be a 4 time All NBA 1st team player (also had a 3rd team).
At 26 Miller had 1 All Star appearance. That's literally all his awards at that point. Miller didn't make an All Star game again until he was 29. That was also his first All NBA team (3rd). Miller finishes his career with career highlights of 3 x All NBA 3rd team, 4 x All Star.
jfc FG.
**** Tatum might have him already.
Miller makes a comment about the Bulls in 91.
All before Pippen actually becomes Pippen, including Top 3 finish in the MVP, All NBAs etc etc.
Miller changes his mind about what he said because, you know, stuff happened after 1991. "He's a liar!"
By the way in 1991 most people felt that MJ was a ballhog who would never win. Do you think people changed their minds about that?
What world is Tatum not tracking to be better than Miller?
At 26 Tatum is an NBA Champ (good chance to repeat), will be Top 6 finisher in the MVP for the 4th straight time and will be a 4 time All NBA 1st team player (also had a 3rd team).
At 26 Miller had 1 All Star appearance. That's literally all his awards at that point. Miller didn't make an All Star game again until he was 29. That was also his first All NBA team (3rd). Miller finishes his career with career highlights of 3 x All NBA 3rd tea
Did fallguy flipflop on Tatum? After saying he was elite since he is a “highly assisted” jump shooter?
Miller makes a comment about the Bulls in 91.
All before Pippen actually becomes Pippen, including Top 3 finish in the MVP, All NBAs etc etc.
Miller changes his mind about what he said because, you know, stuff happened after 1991. "He's a liar!"
Is fallguy also saying that people who change their mind are liars? After he changed his mind on Tatum?
.
1993 1st Round
Dominique........ 30 on 44%
Pippen............... 15 on 33%
Yes great work by me, because you're knocking the common knowledge of players like Dominque Wilkins, who literally says that Pippen is a role player:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/838gMTNvE...
Shaq, Laimbeer, Isiah, Reggie Miller and many more say that Pippen couldn't score and wasn't on scouting reports... But we don't even need them because it's public record that Pippen had the lowest peak scoring ability of any notable si
Ok keep that thought on
You are right.
Great !
Now find me just 1 great professional player that confirm your take :
lebron is not top 10 !
You can’t -> you lose
Case close …
Miller is top 75 and great arguments can be made that put him over Tatum.
Since the best current American player might not be better than Reggie Miller, this proves how much worse American basketball is than previous eras.
lol you didn’t prove anything .
Tatum achieve better team and individual accolades in half the time of Miller with better stats and scored higher then Miller too.
Wait !?!?
Are you saying now PER means nothing because Miller is lower in that stats as well ?
Me , fidstar , dodger and Matt trying like 4 therapists to break through FG world …
But but but remember the Knicks thing.
90s basketball benefitted so much from no one being able to watch games other than the headliners.
Go watch a mid 90s game of Mavs vs Wolves and come back to me.
What's better for a GM:
A) needing to acquire cheap role players like rebounders and defenders because you have a guy that can carry the scoring load.
B) needing to acquire massive star help and opposing franchise players as teammates because your top guy can't carry the scoring load.
Here's how it all works
a high-scoring primary ballhandler (ball-dominator) has a large volume of unassisted buckets that turns everyone into spot-up shooter by increasing their assisted rate... the spot-up roles and h
That didn’t respond to anything in my post but keep spewing your typical narrative shrug
Contrary to many mindless people , we won’t change our view even if you say it 1 million times .
Unless u bring some new factual stats .
This just shows how little you know about basketball. Indiana's strength was it's depth. Miller was barely a Top 15 player at the time.
^^^ That's how great the league was and that's where Tatum would be back then - barely top 15
Thanks for making my point
Just look at 1995 with MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Alonzo, Barkley, Malone, Drexler, Penny, Hill, Payton and you guys would include Pippen - this puts Tatum at borderline 15 like you said Miller was.
Also, Tatum has been knocked in previous years for not winning when everyone thought his team should've... Miller never got knocked because he never had other stars and stacked team like Tatum... And Miller's stats/dominance is better... All of a stats like PER or win shares don't matter.
That didn’t respond to anything in my post but keep spewing your typical narrative shrug
Contrary to many mindless people , we won’t change our view even if you say it 1 million times .
Unless u bring some new factual stats .
You're embarrassed and can't answer the question:
What's better for a GM:
A) needing to acquire cheap role players like rebounders and defenders because you have a guy that can carry the scoring load.
B) needing to acquire massive star help and opposing franchise players as teammates because your top guy can't carry the scoring load.
.
.
"MICHAEL JORDAN ISN'T READY FOR REAL NBA BASKETBALL"
"MJ GETS COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN "
"MJ FAILS OUR EXPECTATION"
"JUST AS WE SUSPECTED - MJ ISN'T READY FOR THIS LEAGUE"
^^^ These would be the headlines if MJ lost a 7-game series by averaging 26 on 35% with 5 TO's like Lebron did in the 2008 2nd Round, or while getting swept in the 07' Finals..
So the narrative that Lebron met every expectation is proven false by 4 unexpected bed wettings, upsets and meltdowns in 07', 08', 09', and 10'.. These failures caused the biggest failure of expectation, aka "the decision", since no one thought that rookie Lebron would give up after Year 7 and team up with opponents thereafter.
TLDR: Lebron was a trainwreck that massively failed expectation with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player thru Year 7, so he failed everyone's expectation even more by giving up after Year 7 and teaming up with opponents thereafter.
Lebron set the record with 3 straight upset losses from 09' to 11', while also having the most losses ever with preseason favorites (and winning 60 games once from 11' to 17' despite 2 all-stars)... Accordingly, it's a historical fact that he lost with favored rosters the most and therefore fails expectation the most.
Btw, the 22-year old Amare averaged 37 on 55% against the 05' Spurs, while Kobe did the same thing to the 01' Spurs and 23-year Jordan set the record against the 86' Celtics and their #1 defense.. Meanwhile, Magic was FMVP at 20... So Lebron failed expectation in 07' and 08', while melting down in 2010 with 21 on 34% for the last 3 games to lose a 2-1 lead (-500 favorite)... And Lebron became a 12 turnover per game player in cluch-time of the 09' ECF, while also guarding Courtney Lee instead of Hedo... He's also too ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams and win with 18 on 38% from Mo like MJ always did with Pippen (and worse team defenses).
