LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

When MJ left in 1994, he was still under contract and getting paid.. There was no major shake-up in the contracts and the Bulls had room to upgrade the entire roster and add a "closer" in Kukoc that MJ never had.. Kukoc won 4 games at the buzzer and another half dozen in the 4th.

Otoh, Jordan was gone in 1999 and off the roster... Ditto Pippen.. This is akin to a team-hopper like Lebron - team-hoppers GUT teams, and that's what happened to the Bulls in 1999 - they lost everyone, just like the 2011 Cavs... And by 1998, people had Bulls' fatigue and wanted them to lose really badly - they were tired of being in awe.

However, everyone knows that the Bulls had 1 or 2 more chips in them and Krause should've done what was necessary to keep them together... Jordan owned the Spurs in 98' - go watch the highlights and you'll get the feeling like MJ could easily handle the Spurs... He beat the Spurs with and without Pippen in 98'.

So teams were trying, or no? Teams weren't trying before bc the Bulls still had talent? Huh? They still had Bill Wennington, Ron Harper, and Kukoc. That's pretty similar to '95. They added Brent Barry! (Def better than '90 Pippen.)

Seems to me Dickie Simpkins was clearly gifted the ready-made goat dynasty. (That was the case without Jordan there and Pippen sucks while PJax is stupid: addition by subtraction.)

1994 was unique for the reasons mentioned previously.

I'm happy declaring victory on this one unless you can come up with better counters.

In addition to not having the "letdown" that Jordan's unexpected retirement caused in 94', the NBA had Jordan fatigue in 99', while the 99' Bulls didn't have the 3-peat system anymore... The 3-peat system and superior chemistry allowed the Bulls to survive in 94' with a weak cast, such as the only team in the league without a 2nd scorer.

Pippen-led teams can't have 2nd scoring options because any decent scorer will replace him as 1st option, such as Steve Smith and Rasheed Wallace in 00', or fossil Barkley and Hakeem in 99', while Kukoc led Pippen in 4th quarter scoring for the entire 98' Playoffs.. So a scorer as weak as Kukoc replaces Pippen as the preferred option in many situations.

Btw, Jordan's off-ball skillset allowed the Bulls to run and master the triangle from 90-93' - Pippen inherited this great chemistry and system, and against sleeping opponents..

I must have missed it, why was 1994 unique? Why weren't teams tired of being in awe then? You said it's bc Jordan quit but still got paid. What? Why would that matter?

Why didn't they have a 3-peat system in '99? They had just 3-peated.

Don't tell me it's bc Pippen and PJax weren't there bc that would obv imply that's the reason they won 55 games in 1994 instead of that people didn't try. Also, don't know if you know this but there was a bigger gap in the MVP voting between Pippen (#3) and Shaq (#4) than Shaq and Ewing (#5), how was everyone so stupid when you're so smart?

Things never change tho bc you're smarter than every person itt and can see through the lies that the media pushes on us that LeBron is great when actually he sucks. You're so smart and objective tho that you still have him as a top fifteen player while letting everyone know what a failure he is. It's confusing but we don't have your big brain to parse reality.

Only thing is I just don't understand is how Reggie isn't higher since he did pretty good with the least star help ever??? (Imagine Reggie with Kevin Love!)

Also, Reggie gets credit for going 7 with the Bulls but Pippen doesn't get credit for going 7 with the Knicks when you keep going on about how great that team was. (They then went to the Finals and went 7 against Hakeem.)

I wish it made sense to me but I'm dumb.

I have no counters. I'm just trying to understand.

Jordan wasn't actually good at all. Teams were just in awe of him so they didn't try at all. Then the next year they tried their hardest against Pippen's bulls.

Because when prime Lebron left a team it would completely crater. This is evidence that teams didn't try against Lebron, but when he left, they had hope so they tried their hardest.

So it turns out when a GOAT is on the court, the opponents don't bother trying. But Pippen was so good he held the ship together even against opponents that were suddenly rejuvenated with hope.

Jordan's off-ball game allowed the team to run the triangle and master it from 90-93'... So Brent Barry cannot come in and run the triangle with any effectiveness in 1999, while Pippen could in 1994 because he was allowed to be an apprentice and master it from 90-93'.

Again, your counter to guys like MJ and Curry running generational offenses is to say that anyone could do it... Anyone can run ball movement systems right??.. Unfortunately, this is false because ball movement systems require elite off-ball players, which is why ball-dominators like Lebron or Luka never ran one and can't... Lebron isn't Duncan, Curry or MJ - he isn't the elite off-ball player required to have a ball movement system and great team.

So that settles the issue regarding not having a 3-peat system in 99'.. Regarding the "letdown" - this requires a SURPRISE, such as AD and Lebron suddenly being "out" for a road game in Boston, or MJ suddenly retiring and causing every opponents' family member to cancel their trip to watch them play.. Essentially, the biggest 82 "letdown" games of all-time were the games against the 94' Bulls.

MVP voting isn't a ranking of the players - it's a ranking of who surprised the most - that's why SGA will win over Jokic, since he had that surprising stretch of winning with an injured team.

Accordingly, I don't go by media awards like MVP, All-NBA, or FMVP... These awards have nothing to do with all-time ranking - they're just the opinion of a few dozen journalism majors.

The only reason that I have a guy who can't develop teammates as top 15 is because I have to open the Overton Window first... So let's start with putting him out of the top 10 first... But obviously, if a guy can't develop great chemistry, teams or young players, then he could easily be ranked much lower... But baby steps first.. i.e. putting lebron out of the top 10 will be less uncommon going forward as he enters retirement and new guys take over.. Then we can continue moving him down the ranks as people look back at his career and see how inept he was with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, or bad title frequency with super-teams and opposing franchise players (never a great team, regardless of cast).

But Pippen wasn't an off-ball jumpshooter and no team with him as a #1 option can succeed.

Or was it that Jordan mentored him to where he could?

I just don't understand. Did Jordan imbue Pippen with a winning playstyle that he forgot after 1998?

Nope, I got it. Scottie didn't feel awe from opponents after he no longer got to wear the same jersey that he did with Jordan and so he just stopped trying.

That makes sense, right? Took me a second, I'm not as quick as you.

So Jordan surprised everyone the most 5 times?

Wow everyone really was stupid, how could they keep getting surprised by the GOAT?

LeBron surprising everyone four times makes sense, he sucks.

Ah, you're playing chess while we're out here playing checkers.

So the right move is to lie and then when they settle into that, hit 'em with the real truth.

Just outside the top 150 seems about right. I think you said 150 guys could win more than LeBron did with his help. Glad to see you actually have Reggie ahead of LeBron, that makes sense.

This is why obvious MVP's like MJ and Jokic don't get as many as they should... The media will take any little surprise that other players provide (like OKC's injury stretch this year) over the actual most valuable player (Jokic).. Or they'll hop onto a feel-good story like Barkley in 93'... But a sober look at the numbers shows how Barkley wasn't anywhere near 93' Jordan.. So many factors affect MVP group think...

I remember back when Nash came in with that sixties hairstyle - it gave him the extra panache of something greater, and the media went for it - they started talking about MVP Nash early in the season, so by the end of the year, it was a "foregone conclusion", lol smh.... Again, even if it wasn't the hair, the point is that you don't really know exactly why a few dozen journalism majors hop on the bandwagon of 1 guy.. Nash winning 2 straight in the face of guys like Kobe, Lebron, Shaq, Dirk and others seems weird.. Few have won 2 straight - Lebron, MJ, Bird - guys like that

How does it feel, knowing that you've wasted years of your life to convince absolutely no one who didn't already start with your insane and outlandish views, and instead turned multiple pro-Jordan posters against you with your "LeBron is not top 10" takes?

At this point you've fully deluded yourself into believing your own garbage, as a sort of defense mechanism to trick yourself into thinking that this hasn't all been a giant waste. Well unfortunately your little sunk cost fallacy is just that. You will continue to waste your life and convince no one, but declare victory because your mind can't comprehend that your entire "mission" has been, and will continue to be waste of time.

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8 of 8 "DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION FOR THAT PLAYOFF RUN:

1. 2017 Warriors (16-1).............. DURANT

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1).................. SHAQ

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)................... DUNCAN

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)................. TATUM

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).............. JOKIC

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)................... DUNCAN

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).................. SHAQ

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4)..................... JORDAN

4 0f 4 "DYNASTIES" THAT MOSTLY WON FOR A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS (I.E. 3 IN 5) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION:

1. CHICAGO BULLS..................... JORDAN

2. LOS ANGELES LAKERS)........... SHAQ

3. SAN ANTONIO SPURS............ DUNCAN

4. GSW WARRIORS...................... CURRY

^^^ 12 of 12 instances of dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball) required bigs or jumpshooters at 1st option.

0 of 12 instances had primary ball-handlers as 1st option

I just go by the historical record... If history showed that ball-dominant systems and the best ball-dominators produced all the great teams, then I would be arguing that ball-dominators should be in the top 10 exclusively.

However, it's the opposite... Ball movement systems and the best off-ball players produced the great teams, so this skillset is in my top 10 exclusively (the best off-ball players).

As the previous post shows, 12 of 12 dynasties (3 chips in 5 years) or dominant title runs (4 losses max) required bigs or jumpshooters at 1st option (highly-assisted skillsets), while 0 of 12 used primary ball-handlers, which is the only low assisted skillset (mostly solo missions and unassisted by teammates).

It's quite simple, so the whole "playing dumb about basketball" act by you guys is getting old.

Yeah but their opponents weren't trying those years so it doesn't count.

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2010

Lebron..... #1 PER... #1 BPM.... #1 WS/48... #1 VORP
Wade....... #2 PER... #2 BPM.... #2 WS/48... #2 VORP

^^^ there's isn't a #1 and #2 team-up from any season that wouldn't be basically unfair, aka Magic-Bird or MJ-Shaq, etc... totally stacked deck and unfair to the league

If the number isn't 150, then what is it?

I'm quite certain that peak Kiki Vandeweghe could go 2 for 6 with AD, or certainly Bernard King or Bob McAdoo and so many more . maybe Alex English.. Definitely Grant Hill or Gary Payton..

I mean, it's a lot of guys, so if 150 isn't right, then what is?

And who can't go 2 for 4 with Wade/Bosh including the goat choke and the record shellacking?

Lebron won 60 games once in 7 seasons with 2 stars from 11' to 17'... How many guys would have 2 seasons of 60 wins??.. 200 guys maybe???

So if Lebron and Wade are on the same team does that opponents try harder?

More than that SABR, we actually showed that Michael Jordan is outside the all-time top 10 himself, when we factor in the perfectly valid criteria that he required the GOAT coach, and a custom designed offensive scheme to incorporate teammates, in order to win even a single championship. LeBron James was able to win 4 rings across different franchises because he was able to incorporate teammates organically with his natural play style. See the argument and ranking here (the order can be adjusted somewhat for the top 10, but it’s very clear MJ is outside the top 10 due to his failures without the triangle, Phil Jackson, and Pippen):

Former player acknowledges MJ was outright scared of Hakeem Olajuwon:

https://www.sportbible.com/nba/michael-jordan-one-player-scared-nba-340295-20250218

SPORTbible

Michael Jordan only 'feared' one player in the NBA and 'admitted he was scared' of facing him on the court

Michael Jordan was a great player for his era, but it’s clear a lot of his success was due to system, coach, and the other great players in Chicago. He admits himself that he was outright scared of other elite players of that era. Can you imagine what an athlete like LeBron in his prime would do?

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Lebron 2010 ECSF

First 3 games'......... 33 on 53%
Last 3 games.......... 21 on 34% <---- quit


Lebron 2011 Finals

First 3 games'........ 20 on 51%
Last 3 games......... 15 on 44% <----- quit

I believe Lebron saw that the ball was flowing Wade's way and that Wade was able to dominate the Mavs better than him, so he quit against the Mavs when he was up 2-1 just like he quit in 2010 with a 2-1 lead.. The reason for quitting was different (personal issues vs not wanting Wade to get FMVP), but the result was the same (Lebron cracking under pressure).

Enjoy your fraud

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High-scoring ball-dominators leave teammates standing in spot-up roles with higher assisted rates:

....................................................... ASSISTED RATE

wade BEFORE lebron (04'-10'):........... 29.2%
wade WITH.... lebron (11'-14'):'.......... 40.3%

irving BEFORE lebron (12'-14'):.......... 31.9%
irving WITH.... lebron.. (15-17'):......... 32.7%

bosh BEFORE lebron (04'-10'):............ 55.8%
bosh WITH.... lebron (11'-14'):'........... 71.6%

love BEFORE lebron (09'-14'):.............. 62.7%
love WITH.... lebron (15'-18'):.............. 78.3%

mo BEFORE lebron (05'-08'):............... 39.2%
mo WITH.... lebron (09'-10'):............... 47.6%

BY IMPOSING SPOT-UP ROLES, LEBRON LOWERED ALL HIS TEAMMATES' ASSISTS

ASSISTS PER GAME AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT LEBRON:

12-14' Kyrie............... 5.8 (no Lebron)
15-17' Kyrie............... 5.3
18-24' Kyrie............... 5.8 (no Lebron)

04-10' Bosh............... 2.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Bosh............... 1.6
15-16' Bosh............... 2.3 (no Lebron)

11-14' Love................ 3.0 (no Lebron)
15-18' Love................ 2.1
19-21' Love................ 2.8 (no Lebron)

05-08' Mo................... 5.7 (no Lebron)
09-10' Mo................... 4.6
11-13' Mo................... 5.3 (no Lebron)

09-10' Chalmers........ 4.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Chalmers........ 3.6

99-04' Snow................ 6.9 (no Lebron)
06-07' Snow................ 4.1

01-05' Hughes........... 3.8 (no Lebron)
06-08' Hughes........... 3.3

2018 Ingram.............. 3.9 (no Lebron)
2019 Ingram.............. 3.0
20-25' Ingram............ 5.2 (no Lebron

2019 Kuzma............... 2.5
22-25' Kuzma............. 3.8 (no Lebron)

2018 Ball..................... 7.2 (no Lebron)
2019 Ball..................... 5.4
20-22' Ball................... 6.1 (no Lebron)

00-09' Jamison........... 1.8 (no Lebron)
2010 Jamison............. 1.3
11-12' Jamison........... 1.9 (no Lebron)

04-10' Wade............... 6.6 (no Lebron)
11-14' Wade............... 4.7

19-22' D-Lo................. 6.7 (no Lebron)
23-25' D-Lo................. 6.2

09-21' Westbrook....... 8.5 (no Lebron)
2022 Westbrook..........7.1

15-18'' KCP.................. 2.0 (no Lebron)
19-21' KCP................... 1.6
22-25' KCP................... 2.2 (no Lebron)

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Jordan's shot attempts, usage and scoring rate increased in the triangle:

Regular Season

85-89' MJ........ 41.5 pts per 100.... 29.5 FGA per 100..... 33.8 usage
90-93' MJ........ 42.0 pts per 100.... 31.1 FGA per 100..... 33.2 usage


Playoffs

85-89' MJ........ 42.9 pts per 100.... 29.7 FGA per 100..... 35.1 usage
90-93' MJ........ 44.4 pts per 100.... 33.4 FGA per 100..... 36.1 usage


Finals

91-93' MJ........ 36.3 PPG...... 35.9 usage

^^^^ We already proved that was all wrong, since Jordan had a 1st-time nobody coach when he won his first championship in 91', while the system to "incorporate teammates" was actually a clever way to INCREASE jordan's burden with higher scoring rate, usage, shot attempts, RPG and APG for the regular season, playoffs and Finals (see previous posts).. So you're comprehensively wrong.

You're just trying to put Jordan outside the top 10 because I put Lebron outside the top 10... But this copycat is obvious, so you have no credibility, while I have all the credibility for opening this Overton Window... I was able to open this window because my arguments are based on the historical and statistical record, while your attempt is copycat and therefore fake.

Lebron didn't incorporate anyone because he cratered teammates' PPG and APG by turning them into spot-up shooter (increasing their assisted rate and reducing their assists) - see previous post for the data.

The spot-up roles prevented young player development, elite roster construction and chemistry, while the low assist teams caused assist deficits for every series loss of Lebron's playoff career (except the goat choke in the 11' Finals).

Btw, no one ever said that Jokic can't win without Murray, or Curry can't win without Klay, or Magic can't win without Kareem, so the fact that this argument is used for Jordan shows that there are no legitimate arguments against him.. He simply had the perfect career.

Furthermore, you have it backwards by knocking guys for being having dominant teams with 2nd options like Murray, Klay or Pippen when you should be praising them for not needing 1st options and franchise players like Lebron..