LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

I just go by the historical record... If history showed that ball-dominant systems and the best ball-dominators produced the great teams, then I would be arguing that ball-dominators should be in the top 10 exclusively.

However, it's the opposite... Ball movement systems and the best off-ball players produced the great teams, so this skillset is in my top 10 exclusively (the best off-ball players).

It's quite simple, so the whole "playing dumb about basketball" act by you guys is getting old.

Accordingly, the top 10 should be the best off-ball players ever, as demonstrated by a combination of their off-ball ability with the great team that they produced, i.e. MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic.

After the best off-ball players ever, we can begin to add the best primary ballhandler at #11... I go with Magic here because he was the most versatile and at least his ball-dominance was accompanied by goat passing and a ridiculous edge in APG - he was the "jordan" of passing... After Magic, there's Lebron and Oscar at #12 and 13... Isiah and Durant seem logical after that, but it's starts to get more subjective at this point.

Not true.... I still have AllBlackDan!!

No honestly, I guess Montrealcorp is a little bit of a leaf in the wind that got mad because I was dominating.. It happens... Matt too apparently?.. I hadn't even realized he was a turncoat on the GOAT until someone pointed out that they were surprised by that... A real Judas

Nope... Efficiency isn't a primary determinant of "carrying the scoring load", unless you're talking about efficiency at high volume, as required to effectively carry the scoring load against top teams.

This is where Lebron's efficiency craters drastically.... Unfortunately, he has low efficiency at the higher jumpshooting volumes required while facing max defensive attention (carrying scoring load).. This inability to shoot well at carry-job volumes (and also too ball-dominant at high scoring levels) prevents him from carrying the scoring load against top teams - this includes defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load on championship level) or carrying weak help over top teams (beating top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick).

The inability to carry weak help over top teams or the scoring load on the championship level requires more star help, which prevents GM's from signing good role players or defenders.

As a high-scoring primary ballhandler (ball-dominator), it's a mathematical fact that Lebron's large volume of unassisted buckets lowered all his teammates assists while increasing their assisted rate (turning them into spot-up shooter).

There's a perfect correlation between turning someone into spot-up shooter (higher assisted rate) and seeing their assists decline as a result... This even happens to Lebron, whose higher assisted rates lately produced trashy assist levels.

So again, by lowering everyone's assists, Lebron produces low team assist rankings over time, while the spot-up roles prevent young player development and elite roster construction... All of this prevents winning with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player or ever producing great teams.

The issue was that team assists per game is correlated with champions, who average 8th in team assists.

Otoh, ball-dominators average 18th in team assists for the 96 instances since 1997 where a player averaged 25+ with under 40% assisted rate in a season (ball-dominators like Lebron).

Again, the metric was team assists, which is highly-correlated with champions, but negatively correlated the only low-assisted skillset in the NBA - high-scoring primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators)..

This was shown in the previous post and posted with linked stats previously as well.

By the end of the 89' Playoffs, MJ built the Bulls to the 2nd best team in the league before getting a 1st-time nobody coach in 1990... Phil simply inherited an impending champion and steepest trajectory ever, while MJ won 6 chips for him by achieving goat stats and domination.

The system increased Jordan's burden across the board (usage, FGA, scoring rate, RPG, APG) and set records for percentage of team points scored for playoff and Finals, so the triangle didn't spread the burden around.

It's easy to forget that the Bulls and Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg in the 93' Finals, so every point of Jordan's 41 ppg was required to 3-peat.... And Pippen had 46.9 true shooting, so he couldn't handle additional load... Accordingly, any team that requires 41 ppg to win is a worst-ever cast.. Indeed, Pippen had the lowest combination of advanced boxscore stats ever for a winning sidekick on that run (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, TS).

AllBlackDan,
If you happen to be reading the thread, can you comment on the following?:

Do you believe LeBron James is not a top 10 all time player because his assisted fg% is slightly below 40% for his career? I believe it’s hovering around 38% right now, and it’s important to realize he has had 9 full seasons in his career above 40%; several of which led to championships. Fallguy thinks this implies LeBron could not even play in a ball movement offense, and he is not capable of averaging above a 40% assisted rate, even though he quite literally has all the skills to play and dominate in a ball movement offense, and has averaged above a 40% assisted rate for 9 full seasons in his career. (Yes, the argument is as dumb as it sounds. No I am not exaggerating any of the wording to make it sound more dumb. This is what he has been arguing for thousands of posts.)

Note that this is different from the claim that Michael Jordan is the GOAT, or the claim that he was better than LeBron. Fallguy is too dumb to understand the difference, so he keeps conflating the two things, and when someone happens to (reasonably) think Jordan is the GOAT, he takes that as agreeing with his assisted rate, LeBron outside the top 10, extremely dumb and knows nothing about basketball argument.

Fallguy was unable to even get handpicked anti-LeBron recruits from other forums to agree with the first argument about assisted rate. That’s because it’s literally the dumbest argument in basketball history.

Would you say the basketball player with the most points scored in the history of the NBA has:

a) a high scoring volume,
b) a medium scoring volume, or
c) a low scoring volume
?

You may answer with one letter: a, b, or c. Let’s pretend for one post that you aren’t the dumbest internet troll in history, and that you don’t get all your basketball knowledge from 1990’s Gatorade and Nike commercials. Answer as if you were moderately intelligent, understand what numbers are and what they mean, and have at least some basketball experience that doesn’t involve deliberately injuring teammates and riding the bench.

Remember that we showed mathematically, with real data, that LeBron James contributed far more to total team assists than both Jordan and Kobe. This was proven when we combined both their assist rate and their assisted field goal data. It wasn’t close, at all, and LeBron was way head.

We also proved using standard statistical techniques (using Steph Curry’s full career data as an example), that a player’s assisted field goal % is a function of a team’s offense, and the role they play within that offense. Curry’s assisted fg% jumped 10 full points under Kerr.

This proves that LeBron James both contributed far more to total team assists than both Jordan and Kobe, AND that his assisted rate would be higher if his role called for it. And since you say assists are what matters to team success, that mathematically puts LeBron over Jordan and Kobe in the GOAT debate, by your very own criteria.

And,

we looked at those numbers that you calculated above (assisted rate + APG) and subtracted the amount that he reduced teammates' APG by, which was 10-50% or 0.5 to 3.0 APG [url=https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=58926107&postcount=25447]per player[/url]... It turns out that high volumes of unassisted buckets from the team's biggest bucket-getter gives teammates less opportunity to assist and leaves them standing in spot-up roles (higher assisted rates).

This massive reduction in APG for each of his teammates produced low average ranking in team assists, such as 18th for all high-scoring primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators) and 15th for Lebron, compared to 8th for the average title team... The low assist teams caused assist deficits for every series loss of Lebron's playoff career, aka the "Achilles heel" of his game (low ball movement and low assist teams/reduction of teammates' assists).

Ultimately, critical things like elite chemistry, player development or roster construction are impossible when everyone becomes spot-up shooter with lower assists, due to a mostly unassisted skillset of the 1st option (ball-dominator).

Curry wasn't an elite player during his years of lower assisted rates, which shows that not everyone achieves the same stats at different assisted rates/systems... i.e. not everyone is elite both on-ball and off-ball, which is why some stars only play in systems that allow their preferred assisted rate (that maximizes their game and stats).

Similar to Curry not being an elite player on-ball, Lebron isn't elite off-ball, as required by the 1st options of ball movement systems.. Ball movement systems require elite off-ball players at 1st option, which proves that Lebron can't play in a ball movement system - i.e. every coach will prefer to get Lebron's maximum stats by letting him dominate the ball rather than muffle him in a ball movement system running off screens with higher assisted rates and jumpshooting volume - they would obviously get fired for doing that to a foot-shuffler and bricklayer like Lebron.

This is why the player-type/skillset of a superstar dictates the system.. i.e. they wanted a ball movement system to match Curry's jumpshooting and allow him to explode, so they got a Popovich and Phil disciple (Kerr).... Similarly, Lebron always gets the coaching style that allows him to explode, but unfortunately, it's a losing style (ball-domination) that produces weak chemistry, horrific title frequency and losing records with every type of good team (preseason favs, Finals teams, all-star teammates, 1 or 2 seeds).

You haven't shown me why efficiency is a requirement for carry-job... I'm still waiting on that.. I brought up carry-jobs, then you brought up efficiency, and said "what does that have to do with carry-jobs", and that's where we're at...

Btw, shooting well at carry-job volume is a goat requirement - no one else did it except Jordan... Lebron certainly can't do it because carry-job volume requires more jumpers, and he shoots 36% outside of 5 feet... lol.. LeFraud (that you fell for)

If those players were so great , how come they never won anything elsewhere ?
larry hughes never could achieve anything near allnba -> great player .
Zydrunas, another never reach allnba caliber -> great player
Mo Williams , again never allnba -> great player
Jamison , never allnba-> great player

Pippen 7 times allnba (many time first team) , amazing defender too -> bad player

Probably a coincidence pippen got 6 rings too , since he was so much worst then those players to help MJ …
It’s not like pippen got lucky with 1 ring.
He got lucky 6 times and all those 1990s people had no idea about basketball because they were incredibly stupid to believe pippen good enough to be allnba …

Ah yes i Forget -> results do not matter in FG world.

Makes so much sense FG as usual .

All-NBA, FMVP and other media awards mean nothing (the opinion of a few media members)... Literally nothing.... Only dominant performance matters, and Pippen has none.. No one was more carried then him and he's the only 90's sidekick that was just a dunker and lacked elite scoring ability.

Pippen never won anything without Jordan, just like Mo, Zydrunas and company didn't win without Lebron, so you have no point.

Kyrie, Wade and Love made the Finals without Lebron... Pippen never made the Finals without Jordan.

History shows that Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.. He's on the list of secondary producers that needed the spotlight of titles to make All-NBA (Klay, Pippen, Parker, Ginobili, Pau, Dumars, Worthy, etc)... Otoh, elite producers and franchise players like Love, AD, KAT, Bosh and Kyrie make All-NBA without titles because everyone knows they dominate.

Kevin Love made the finals as a bench player scoring 7 points per game in 18 minutes per game. Shooting 37% from the field in the process. Cool story bro.

And Jordan never made the finals without Pippen.

Get help.

No idea why 1990 pippen is so important in every single post FG does.
Mj lost anyway with 1990 pippen shrug .
No idea what FG tries to prove .
Pippen was better then 1990 when mj won ….

I love the fact we speak about players like mo, zydrunas accomplished nothing without Lebron and never were allnba compare to pippen ,
and then you use players like Kyrie and dwade , great players , trying to compare with pippen ….as if dwade and Kyrie are comparable to the 4 players you started the conversation with .
Hell you even had to bring a « franchise » player (your argument…😉 like Kevin love to find a comparaison with pippen …

I think that proves the point that pippen his comparable to all the great players Lebron played with .
You have to bring franchise players , mvp final Winners and allnba players to compare with pippen lol….

Ok nvm allnba .
And yet u focus so much on all stars nominations ….?
Why ?

But hey let’s uses all stars then ….pippen was way more often an all stars then any of those 4 players you bring like mo, Larry Hughes , etc.
It’s a real joke really .

Btw you keep saying pippen sucked as a scorer and yet none of them ever reach being top 8 scorer in the league either like pippen did…
Jamison his best was 9th and 13th.
Pippen was 8th and 15th and yet again pippen sucked with comparable scoring while Jamison is great ?
Another inconsistant vision you have ….

Jamison, Zydrunas, Mo and Hughes could average 18-20 ppg outside the system, while Pippen was literally nothing outside the system - he wasn't even a good player and nowhere near Mo, Zydrunas, Hughes or Jamison... Pippen simply learned to get 15-20 "system points" or transition, which disappear in 4th quarter, clutch-time, and outside the system, or in the playoffs.

In addition to Pippen being a system player, the main point is that Lebron was gifted 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen but couldn't develop them because his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter - this prevents young player development and chemistry, thereby requiring more star help (ready-made stars - can't develop players - this is disqualifying - if you can't develop players, then you aren't top 10.. Full stop

You say that I need help but you think that Pippen is the only player in history that MJ could make the Finals with... Think about how dumb that is... Your entire argument is that MJ is the luckiest player ever by landing alongside the only player in history that he could win with.

So you need help because you fell for a fraud and are now forced to say things that make no sense whatsoever.

Furthermore, Kyrie and Wade made the Finals without Lebron, so do you think that by pointing out Love was a low-producer (just like Pippen in 2000) negates the fact that Lebron had 2 other teammates that made the Finals without him, including a FMVP?... So all your arguments are nothing and everything I say about Lebron is fact - it's historical fact that he's the biggest loser of all-time.

Thread Cliffs

Dynasties and dominant champions use ball movement systems, which require elite off-ball players, thereby excluding ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron from ever having a ball movement system and great team.. Instead, their "downhill" skillset relegates them to a ball-dominant brand of ball, which rarely wins and can't win with normal rosters.. Since the ball-dominator skillset can't have great ball movement systems and great teams, they can't be in the top 10 all-time.

I just go by the historical record... If history showed that ball-dominant systems and the best ball-dominators produced all the great teams, then I would be arguing that ball-dominators should be in the top 10 exclusively.

However, it's the opposite... Ball movement systems and the best off-ball players produced the great teams, so this skillset is in my top 10 exclusively (the best off-ball players).

It's quite simple, so the whole "playing dumb about basketball" act by you guys is getting old.

Accordingly, the top 10 should be the best off-ball players ever, as demonstrated by a combination of their off-ball ability with the great team that they produced, i.e. MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic.

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Lebron cratered all-stars or all-defender acquisitions that produced at "pippen-levels":

Per 100 Possessions

05' HUGHES.................. 29.3 on 52 TS.... 21.6 PER.... 0.157 WS/48 (1st team' all-defense, no all-star)
91' PIPPEN.................... 24.3 on 56 TS.... 20.6 PER.... 0.179 WS/48 (2nd team all-defense, no all-star)

09' JAMISON................. 30.7 on 55 TS.... 20.6 PER.... 0.126 WS/48 (2x all-star)
93' PIPPEN.................... 25.1 on 51 TS.... 19.2 PER.... 0.138 WS/48 (2x all-star)

Lebron also lost with all-stars that produced at "pippen-levels", and better team defensive ranking:

Per 100 Possessions

09' MO WILLIAMS........ 27.5 on 59 TS.... 17.2 PER.... 0.165 WS/48 (#3 team defense)
93' PIPPEN.................... 25.1 on 51 TS.... 19.2 PER.... 0.138 WS/48 (#7 team defense)

05' ZYDRUNAS'............. 27.0 on 55 TS.... 19.5 PER.... 0.149 WS/48 (all-star)
93' PIPPEN.................... 24.3 on 56 TS.... 20.6 PER.... 0.179 WS/48 (no all-star)

CONCLUSION: MJ was good enough to be unbeatable with the first all-star he received, thereby never needing another one, while Lebron lost with numerous all-stars and 2nd option-type players, thereby needing elite 1st options and franchise players instead (Luka, Wade, AD, Kyrie).. He also needed additional 1st options/franchise players to play 3rd option (Love, Bosh)... And yet he still mostly lost because his mostly unassisted skillset of ball-domination imposes spot-up roles that prevents young player development, elite roster construction, great teams, or winning with normal rosters of 1 franchise player.

What's more likely:

A) The player with the goat production rate/dominance over the course of a completed career (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP) was good enough to be unbeatable with the first all-star he received, thereby never needing another one

or

B) The player with the goat production rate/dominance could only win with 1 player in the history of basketball, and he happened to land that player (pippen).

Since 1951, there were 14 teams that won titles while having 3 players in double-figures for the playoff run, and 5 of them are Jordan's titles, while his 6th title was the only title ever won with 2 guys in double-figures (1997).

So Jordan is simply punished for by new fans for being so good that he was unbeatable with the first all-star he received... This includes all-stars that were transition players with horrific efficiency in the halfcourt like Pippen, who was literally a bad player outside the system that they grew up in (system player).

Well it is what happened. I don't know what could've but didn't happen.

At least 150 players in history would do better than 1 for 6 with AD, or 1 for 4 with Love and Wade (except the Allen miracle), or 1 sixty-win season in 7 tries with 2 all-star teammates (11-17'), so I'm doing Lebron a tremendous service by putting him at #12.. I'm giving credit to his physical talent despite suboptimal skills that underachieve good rosters more than anyone ever has.

But apparently, Lebron fans feel it's better for Jordan to go 1 for 6 with Pippen and 1 for 4 with McHale, then win 6 chips with Pippen... It's better to mostly lose regardless of cast and be incapable of producing great teams (1 for 4), then being capable of producing the great teams or the goat team (6 for 6).

FYI - I don't know who won tonight and won't be checking the scores again in 2025 because it's fraud - literally the biggest in sports history... Why isn't Jokic teaming up with SGA and Luka???... It's because it would be ridiculous fraud - that's why... So why does Lebron get to do it??? It's because the media created a fake debate that Lebron cannot live up to, so he always needs more help.. The NBA is attempting to get a football player turned ball-dominator another manufactured chip where he's completely carried compared to Jordan's chips...... and then say he's goat.... aka 100% grade A fraud... And I've been as dumb as you guys for following the scores even though I don't waste my life watching the games of this "technique" (since the current format, rules and style of play isn't real basketball)..

So again, I don't follow this sh*t at all anymore, and only rail against it.. Yet I can tell you what will happen in the playoffs... Since ball-dominators cannot win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player, OKC will need Jalen Williams to average around 27+ and ascend to franchise player status by dominating... Otherwise OKC cannot win with normal roster where he's getting like 20 ppg or some trash like he's Klay or Pippen - he cannot be a secondary producer like these guys or OKC will lose... Assuming Jalen Williams doesn't ascend to franchise player status, Denver should make the Finals and face Boston.. Enjoy your fraud.

Your argument is that MJ can't win with Kareem, Luka or other stars, which is absurd and means you lose... I'm fine leaving it here and claiming victory..

Again, stop watching so much TV... MJ would've won with Reggie Miller, Schrempf or Nance, Kemp, anyone... Prime Jordan wins with anyone in a 2-star vs 2-star format, even a low producer with worst ever efficiency like Pippen... Pippen was a historic bricklayer that never hit a big shot and was statistically carried more than anyone ever was..

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Disqualifying factors for Lebron from the top 10 all-time:

* Long history of cratering teammates' PPG and APG

* Zero young player development - cannot develop young players (imposes spot-up roles)

* Prevents elite roster construction by turning everyone into spot-up shooter (long history of roster construction difficulties)

* Prevents elite chemistry/teammate performance by turning everyone into spot-up shooter (long history of weak chemistry and cratering teammates)

* Lowers everyone's assists and produces low assist teams (bad at ball movement)

* Cannot carry the star category of scoring, thereby needing more star help and preventing GM's from getting defensive help or good role players (the neediest teams in history)... The issue is that he's too ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load vs top teams and therefore needs all-time scoring help.

* Can't play the best brand of ball - i.e. all dynasties and dominant champions used ball movement systems, which require elite off-ball players, so ball-dominators can't play in the ball movement systems required of great teams.

* Cannot win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player due to worst-ever chemistry, aka imposing spot-up roles

* The entire history of primary ball-handlers never produced a great team as 1st option (dynasty or dominant champion) - it's because they aren't elite off-ball players, as required for the ball movement systems that great teams use.

No one in my top 10 has these fundamental issues with their game (chemistry, young player development, carrying scoring load, producing great teams).

Of course the 2-pointer era didn't require offensive dominance to be MVP, so those guys don't have to carry the scoring load.. But otherwise, no one in my top 10 has these fundamental issues with their game.
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Let’s again look at result ?
Pippen without a rebounder and having freakin tony kukoc at his second ,
still was 2 games over .500 before mj join them .

About your amazigh franchise player Kevin love result :
24-58
15-67
17-65
26-40
31-51
40-42
In all those years never could break .500 and his team made atrocious results …

I’ll take pippen everytime easily .
I know its stupid but results actually do matters in our world.
That is usually how we judge if an hypothesis works ot not .
Well 90% of your hypothesis fails big time …..

Pippen wasn't a good enough scorer or dominator to be asked to build a team from scratch like Love or Bosh.... He wasn't good enough to build around (franchise player).

Instead of building franchises from scratch like Love and Bosh, Pippen was handed a ready-made goat dynasty and quickly cratered it to barely .500 before MJ stopped the collapse.

And MJ won with Kukoc as the starting PF in the 98' playoffs, while Rodman averaged 3/8 for the 97' Playoffs... So Jordan didn't need sh*t at PF.. Meanwhile, Horace averaged 12/9 alongside Jordan and every team in the league had that... Horace's brother Harvey was actually much more skilled, but no one heard of him on the Wizards because he wasn't getting carried to 3-peats like Horace.. Horace and Pippen would be unknown like Harvey Grant if they were losing on the Wizards instead of getting carried to 3-peats by MJ.

Btw, the Knicks literally had 4 Horace Grants - every team destroyed the bulls inside but it wasn't a problem for MJ because he could still outscore the best center from the post... Goat gonna goat... Jordan was the goat scorer from anywhere inside the arc and at everything inside the arc.