LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Describing the Bulls without Jordan (nor Horace Grant/Rodman) as a ready-made goat dynasty is literally your dumbest take.

Of course you'll never stop repeating it but it's really, really dumb.

Jordan can't do **** without Pippen but somehow Pippen was supposed to 3-peat with BJ Armstrong and Will Perdue and it's a demerit otherwise.

It's beyond nonsensical and the type of thing that's argued by someone who knows it's a lie but wants to score points with fellow partisan idiots who can't think critically.

Yup pippen had a dynasty team in 1995 (lol) while adding a MJ , they get crush by Orlando with Otis grant .
A dynasty team with even a 80% MJ should easily win right ?

But on the other hand , the bulls without hand mj , u claimed ever single player sucked in the second 3 peat and yet , magically , pippen suck because he had a dynasty team in his hand ???

Tell me , how a team can suck without mj and yet be at the same time a dynasty team without MJ just because pippen leads it in 1995 (without Rodman or grant )?

Btw nice diversion not mentioning how love sucked big time and getting crush while at least pippen still manage to be over .500 and even had 55 wins with grant the year prior .

Again results matter in the real world -> love was one of the worst franchise ever …

Pippen was gifted a 50-win team and .500 team - he cannot build a .500 team from scratch because he was a 7 ppg rookie and would never be 1st option if MJ hadn't retired suddenly - it took this miracle for Pippen to be 1st option..

And then Pippen's weak dominance and low scoring ability prevented a 2nd scoring option (since any scoring option replaces Pippen as 1st option)... So they had the worst talent in the league but survived with 3-peat chemistry and a ready-made, established system... This is what MJ built and Pippen couldn't - Pippen was just gifted the system and champion that MJ built - he was never good enough to build it himself (franchise player)... Imagine if MJ wasn't there in 1988 - the Bulls go nowhere with 7 ppg Pippen and need to bring in Worthy or KJ to lead him... Look it up.
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Pippen has the worst advanced stats:

Career PER

4. AD
24. Wade
36. Kyrie
67. Love
75. Bosh
148. Pippen


WS/48

15. AD
76. Love
81. Kyrie
82. Wade
88. Bosh
145. Pippen


BPM

17. AD
27. Wade
35. Kyrie
38. Pippen
63. Love
144. Bosh


TS

51. AD
81. Kyrie
127. Bosh
130. Love
245. Wade
N/A Pippen

Pippen has the worst shooting ever:

Pippen has the worst clutch or go-to ability:

FYI:

JORDAN'S 1987 SEASON........ 2nd player ever with 3000 points... 1st player ever with 200 steals & 100 blocks

No, but don't crater the goat dynasty to barely .500 (biggest-ever drop-off).

Pippen-led teams crater quickly because his teams can't have a 2nd option... i.e. any decent scoring acquisition will make it a 1a/1b situation and replace Pippen as 1st option... It's obvious that the player who set the record for bad playoff efficiency, or averages 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter will get demoted to 2nd option (Pippen) - see these stats above - they show Pippen's lack of "go-to" ability or clutch ability.

Pippen shouldn't even be classified as a "scorer" because he couldn't pull-up for jumpers off a live/existing dribble.. Let that sink in.... Specifically, the TMac or Kobe stationary pull-up moves, or any type of step-back are off limits for Pippen.. He also couldn't pull-up off a hard dribble (going hard one direction and pulling up) - these were EXTREMELY rare plays for pippen (basically never).. Accordingly, Pippen was a transition player with worst-ever efficiency in the halfcourt and literally a bad player outside a system that could get him 15 to 20 points of mostly transition and flow points.

Pippen needed the most help ever (MJ), while MJ needed the least (Pippen)... This is statistical fact.

Pippen needed the highest-ever PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48 and goat scorer to win, while Jordan needed the lowest PER, WS/48, BPM and VORP to win (Pippen).. See the data above for career rankings in these stats.

Accordingly, you're looking at it backwards so you can avoid admitting that you fell for a fraud.. We've never said that Giannis can't win without Middleton, or Curry can't win without Klay, or Jokic can't win without Murray... It punishes these guys for producing a great team without needing additional stars, while praising guys that need many star teammates and can't produce great teams (and therefore must move on to another team)...

Jokic, Jordan and Curry won with a 2nd option producers like Klay, Pippen, and Murray, while Lebron needs 1st options and franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option (Luka, Wade, AD, Love, Bosh, Kyrie)... So there's no comparison... Jordan and Curry were unbeatable with a single 2nd option, while Lebron mostly lost with multiple 1st options and franchise players as teammates.

Again, no one ever says that Curry can't win without Klay or Giannis can't win without Middleton, yet this logic is considered perfectly fine for Jordan, which confirms that zero real arguments exist against him.. He simply had the perfect career.

Btw, prime Jordan never got to play without Pippen, so that's a losing argument to begin with... Jordan had 2 seasons in 85' and 87', so he had zero prime years without Pippen, yet this tiny window of non-prime years still resulted in a goat season in 1987 (shown above), or Bobby Knight and Bird saying he's the goat and "god".

Giannis was the best player yet Middleton was the one with offensive skill. Just like KG with Pierce.

Your whole point that Pippen can't be the best player next to a primary scorer is dumb.

So we've established that Pippen can't be a team's best scorer because the team will lack capacity for talent (can't add scorers).

And now you're saying that Pippen doesn't have to be the best scorer to be the best player, but this rare type of player is either an all-time floor general (Magic, Kidd, Nash), or DPOY (Ben Wallace, Dikembe, etc) and usually multiple DPOY... Pippen is nowhere near either, i.e. he averaged less APG than literally everyone, such as 90's sidekicks, Lebron's sidekicks, or MJ, while never winning DPOY (and getting less votes than MJ for 7 of 9 seasons).

So your idea of "best player" requires elite production in either APG, RPG or BPG, but Pippen is a low producer by comparison and non-elite in every category... If the Bulls needed elite playmaking and assists, MJ was the only option, and he had no problem getting elite APG while playing on-ball (89') or off-ball (91' Playoffs)... Otoh, Pippen lacked a breakdown handle and couldn't even reach 6 APG without the goat assist target alongside him (MJ), while also being a bad player outside the system... A far better candidate for the type of "best player" that you're looking for is Draymond Green - he's closer to the elite APG, RPG or multiple DPOY requirements than Pippen is, while also having the cerebral alpha that is also required of the position... Yes, Draymond is better than Pippen for all these reasons, while also having better peak shooting ability and far better clutch... Pippen is the worst-ever in the clutch, which alone disqualifies him.

Btw, Pippen was never the best player on any team that he was on, and it wasn't just that he wasn't the best player, but he wasn't ANYWHERE NEAR the best player on any team that he was ever on... The only exception is when MJ suddenly retired in 94', yet guys like Kukoc, Grant and BJ had higher WS/48 in the playoffs.. I think Kukoc had higher BPM... Again, Pippen was just the lucky low-producing dunker and bricklayer that landed alongside the GOAT entering his prime.. He never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated his pedestrian scoring and playmaking ability to all-time status and media accolade.

Iguodala as Jordan's running-mate would've won in the 90s too. The era sucked and MJ is a top 5 player ever. Pippen was bigger tho, and that obviously helps.

You just combat strawmen while asserting bullshit along the way as facts.

You build Pippen up as this greater player than anyone itt thinks and then proceeds to argue against that. And shocker, he played his athletic prime with Jordan, how is arguing he was never the best player on his team something other than obvious? Oh, except that time he was third in MVP (he even received seven [!] first place votes).

Can you folllow a discussion ?
U keep saying mj had bums has teammates , then mj not in the team
And u say pippen inherited a great team ?

You say pippen cant make a .500 team and yet he did in 1995 even without Horace grant ….
I mean who’s left when you even take out Horace Grant in a team and u say pippen had a great team ?
Was it just about Grant ?

So I ask again was the teammates of mj suck or were good ?
If they were good who was it ?
If they suck, why you blame pippen being bad when he achieve a 55 win team and over .500 when love never could has a leader and bosh only did once over .500 ?

You get the dilemma?
You get there is something wrong in your 2 narratives ?

If pippen inherited a great squad and made a bad job with it , fine .
But don’t say mj had a bad team , mj had a great team !

If the bulls with mj sucked and they only win because of mj , fine .
But then pippen did a pretty good job with it !
Still being over .500 without the goat .

You can’t be right on both u bozo …

You have to choose over:
pippen being a terrible player
or
mj had 2 great teams to explain his success ….

This kind of cognitive dissonance is usually reserved for flat earthers or creationists.

MJ carried a team of talentless bums. Then he retires and suddenly Pippen (who has always sucked) was carried by the same bums to 55 wins?

Make that make sense.

fallguyBOT: By that time Jordan had elevated the status of those talented bums, proving once again that he is the GOAT.

there are many misperceptions itt.

The exact same lottery cast from 1989 began a 3-peat in 1991 - there were no additions of talent, so the team simply improved at effective basketball, aka chemistry-based winning versus talent-based... The improved via a "lose, try again... lose, try again... never again" approach, which produced the best basketball team ever.

However, none of this improvement is possible if Jordan had a ball-dominant skillset and imposed spot-up roles that prevented young player development, elite roster construction and chemistry.

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1998 Pippen

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html

Basketball-Reference.com

Scottie Pippen Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html

Basketball-Reference.com

Scottie Pippen Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

MJ winning 6 chips with an Iggy-level player at sidekick means that he's the most dominant player ever, not that the era sucked.

The top 15 American players in 1996 were equal or better than the best American player today (Tatum)... i.e. Shaq, Robinson, MJ, Drexler, Hill, Penny, Ewing, Zo, Payton, Malone, Barkley, Kemp, Kidd, Stockton, and you guys apparently would include Pippen... Hakeem was actually an American citizen that played for the US in the 96' Olympics... If we move later to 98' or 99', we can add Duncan, KG and Kobe, or if we move back to 1990 then we can add Dominique, Magic, Bird, Isiah, Mullin, KJ, aka everyone.

So since we know that the ere didn't suck, we can conclude that MJ won 6 chips in 3-pointer basketball as the best player (twice as much as anyone else) because he was the most dominant player ever, not because it was a weak era.

^^^^ That's what I've been saying - MJ's goat dominance won with weak help, such as Iggy-level players at sidekick like Pippen... And since we concluded above that the era wasn't weak, MJ's ability to win with Iggy is even more remarkable.

Again, Pippen never played above an Iggy or Nance level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade - that's what I've been saying the entire time and you just agreed with me..

And Pippen was actually much worse than Iggy or Nance because they could average 20 outside the system, while Pippen was literally a bad player outside the system and a tertiary option (see his "worse than Jeff Green" stats outside the system above).

Pippen was primarily a transition player that averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter vs Ewing, which is something that players with better "go-to" capability like Nance or Iggy aren't capable of - they're legitimate options in clutch-time, while Pippen couldn't pull-up off the dribble and never hit a big shot in his life... So hell yeah MJ wins with Iggy in the 90's - that's what I've been saying the entire time.

33-year old Pippen was instantly demoted to 3rd option behind 36-year old Barkley and Hakeem, and then 34-year Pippen was 3rd option again behind the mighty Steve Smith and Rasheed Wallace in 2000 - again, any reasonable scorer will unseat Pippen as 1st option, and Smith or Wallace aren't even close to guys like Schrempf, X-Man, or Terry Porter, who are still a couple level below the top guys.

Ultimately, anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get 25 ppg or FMVP for 1 of the Finals, but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg (19 on 42% overall) - this is "Iggy" caliber, except without the FMVP or clutch ability, so actually much worse than Iggy.

So in actually mj just had a minor impact on winning because the system itself was so great !
Thx for clarifying that out lol…

A lot of bad teams win 55 games and peter-out in the playoffs and the following year... It means literally nothing, especially when facing sleeping opponents all year that don't care 2 bird sh*ts about facing the Bulls without the goat - opponents saw their entire family cancel the trip to see them play once the GOAT retired, aka the biggest letdown game of the year.

We all remember when Austin Reaves went into Boston last year and destroyed the champs without AD or Lebron - the headlines were that Boston fell asleep and took the Lakers lightly - Pippen faced this kind of sleeping opponent all year long... It's bball 101 and part of the game.

Naturally, once opponents woke up, the Bulls were historically embarrassed in the playoffs and barely .500 the following season.... This wasn't a surprise because everyone knew that Pippen wasn't a franchise player that could build teams and was simply handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever.

Ball movement systems require elite off-ball players, so that's how we know that Lebron can't play in them... He simply isn't Duncan, Curry, MJ, etc (elite off-ball players).... And since these ball movement systems are required by dynasties, we know that Lebron cannot produce a dynasty, which puts him behind many guys that can.

Love won 40 games while tasked with building something from nothing, so he didn't have a ready-made 3-peat system and chemistry.. Ditto Bosh... Again, Pippen already had the winning system in place that MJ built, so he should've built the team back up with the "great coach" Phil jackson, but instead the team got worse and worse..... until mj stopped the collapse and lifted a .500 team to another 3-peat... 55 wins when no one is trying and then barely .500 when opponents wake up is complete trash... it's the biggest collapse ever (goat dynasty to barely .500 rapido)

So convenient that we can just make ridiculous nonsense like this up when necessary.

They can get summed up as the entire works of you ITT.

And yet you said previously the regular season is all that matter to distinguish « franchise player » …

You always seem to dismiss the importance of grant (rebounding elements) in the 1995 .
It was such a big element , even MJ couldn’t overcome it !
Rodman was just a coincidence in his arrival in 1996 ?
After all he was just the rebounding champs for like 6 years straight from 92-98….

Yup keep claiming how great the 1995 bulls were without grant and MJ lol…
Damn I even respect pippen even more now thinking about it ….
He did better then Kevin love and Chris bosh ever did with the players pippen had .

Ps: Just an example , Chris bosh had 4-5 players with 10+ ppg and couldn’t break .500 lol while pippen with only kukoc and Armstrong he could !
And remember FG words , the talent in the 1990s was amazing and that is what pippen was fighting against with kukoc and Armstrong lol….

Btw 1995: pipen 21ppg, 15th scorer in the league, second in dpoy , nba1 playing with only 2 10+ ppg players made 2 games above .500-> sucked .

Chris bosh just an AS , with 4-5 players 10+ ppg , in the weak a$$ east conference !!, finishing 33-49 in 2009 -> amazing franchise player lol.

I won’t even go with Kevin love , he never could break .500 for years lol.

Keep lying in your delusional world !!!
The only players that was there in 1994 from the 3 peat « mj build » was Armstrong , grant and facking Cartwright with will perdue lol..

Kukoc join in 1994
Kerr join in 1994
Harper join in 1995
Longley join in 1994
Paxson gone after 27 games in 1994

What are u even talking about with the 3 Peat system pippen benefit from lol

And when grant left in 1995 it’s an entire new squad beside Armstrong ffs …and pippen manage .500 in a very strong east at that time …
Wtf u smoking …the system lol….

It’s like I’m Not even talking to a flat earth believer ,
I’m talking to someone that think the earth is freakin triangle (no pun intended lol…😉

See you just prove my point in 2 ways.

First of all, the 3-peat system that you're asking about was the triangle, which MJ's off-ball skillset allowed... So the Bulls had a 3-peat offense mastered by 1994, due to MJ's off-ball game allowing it to grow for 4 years from 90-93' (3-peat)... Otoh, Love and Bosh didn't get a ready-made 3-peat system, and were trying to build a franchise on their own without having it already built for them like Pippen.

Secondly, you prove my point by listing all the great new players that the Bulls got in 1994... They upgraded every position and added a "closer" in Kukoc that Jordan never had... Kukoc won 4 games at the buzzer during the 94' regular season and another half dozen by closing 4th quarters.

So let's summarize - the vastly upgraded roster that Pippen received, plus Kukoc closing 10 games or so, while also facing sleeping opponents is why the Bulls had a lucky 55 wins before coming back to reality in the playoffs and 1995... It's easy to forget that every opponent had their family cancel the trip to see them play once the GOAT retired.. It was the biggest letdown game of the year, and Pippen enjoyed 82 of these before opponents were forced to wake up in the playoffs and following season.

It's easy to forget that every opponent had their family cancel the trip to see them play once the GOAT retired.. It was the biggest letdown game of the year, and Pippen enjoyed 82 of these before opponents were forced to wake up in the playoffs and following season.

We all remember when Austin Reaves went into Boston last year and destroyed the champs without AD or Lebron.. Every headline said that Boston fell asleep and took the Lakers lightly (above) - Pippen faced this kind of sleeping opponent all year long before opponents were forced to wake up in the playoffs and following season.

Letdown games are bball 101 and part of the game, so it's always funny when you guys play dumb about bball 101 stuff like letdown games or chemistry... But you guys should understand that Pippen was expected to crater the Bulls from the outset, so no one was surprised when it happened in the playoffs and following season - everyone knew that Pippen wasn't a franchise player that could build teams, and was simply handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever.

I laughed it off at first but now that I think about it, that would explain the Bulls record after MJ and Pippen left in '99 (I'm not sure what it was tho). Obviously no one would be trying against them at that point too.

I'm sure they had similar success, right?

Oh, they went from winning 76% of their games to 26%? Well, that's just one year and was the lockout. Let's check the next year.

21%? Huh, oh well. I'm sure fg has an explanation for that.