LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Your point was wrong. Tatum was better at the same age as Miller and it's not even close. There is no other interpretation of the numbers that say otherwise. Miller hadn't even gotten out of the first round at that age.

Miller's stats are better, except the actual real stats? Curious to know which stats matter.

Also, Miller didn't have a loaded team when he played with Franchise Player Chris Mullin?

How is saying Miller and Tatum are about the same equal to"changing my mind on Tatum"

You guys are forced to lie about what I said because you can't argue against what I actually said

Most comments from the 90's say that the Bulls were a 1-man team because that was the universal thinking at the time... And that's what hoops fans in any era think about a 30-35 ppg dude that carries a bunch of low scorers and defenders.

Otoh, the only comments that say the 90's Bulls had a talented roster are recent comments from players or media 30 years after the fact, so they can promote an agenda or simply support the current game (cumbaya).

Tatum, Lebron and Miller were all carried by teammates.

So what's your point.

So again, since the best American player in today's game would be borderline top 15 in the 90's like Reggie Miller, we can confirm that today's American basketball is dogsh*t trash compared to the 90's

Media accolade means nothing because Tatum plays in a weaker league where he's a top 5 player, while he would be barely top 15 in 1995.

The whole point is that Tatum plays in a weaker league... So there's no basis to put Tatum over Miller.

Tatum would be borderline top 15 in 1995 just like Miller... i.e. MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Alonzo, Barkley, Malone, Drexler, Penny, Hill, Payton and you guys would include Pippen - this puts Tatum at borderline 15 like you said Miller was.

Don't post dumb stuff just to post something

Mullin was past his prime just like 2010 Shaq, or 2008 Ben Wallace, or 1997 Rodman, etc

Miller never had star help, while Tatum always did

1995

MJ
Shaq
Hakeem
Robinson
Ewing
Alonzo
Barkley
Malone
Drexler
Penny
Hill
Payton
Kemp
Pippen

^^^13 guys equal or better than Tatum (14 if you include Pippen)

2025

Jokic
SGA
Giannis
Luka

^^^ 4 guys better than Tatum in 2025?.. 5 or 6 equal or better?

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Playoffs

Miller....... 19.5 PER.... 5.0 BPM.... 0.180 WS/48.... 1.7 peak VORP.... 60.1 TS... goat clutch rep
Tatum..... 19.2 PER.... 4.2 BPM.... 0.137 WS/48.... 1.6 peak VORP.... 56.6 TS... no clutch rep

Miller is higher across the board in the playoffs (PER, BPM, WS/48, peak VORP).

This is despite including his entire career, which includes a lot of old low-producing years

Again u still evading and for your information there is more then 1 way to win ….
And Lebron did carry the scoring load while Russel never did and was carried by many all stars on his team and yet is number 2 on your list lol….

It’s you who are embarresed by your own contradictions , im just bringing them up .

You just said PER didn’t matter in a previous post but now only playoffs matter lol ?

It’s ok , in due time Tatum will easily dominate that stats too later on since he will get better and Tatum got ring ….and mvp final already !

Yup again another example of the best players in FG book are the ones that didn’t win anything (except when its Lebron , now it be comes important again…😉

Whoops!

I would say this is a lie, but I actually think you believe it.

You literally just complained about Pippen getting All NBAs because of the media back in the 90s (not performance). So they gave them to him, but didn't think he was any good?

Anyway. Lots of all nba selections, 6th man, all stars etc for the Bulls. The Bulls were seen as a great team led by a star.

Nothing has changed.

Bolded the players that were better at 26 than Tatum. Italics that are about the same.

Stop making **** up.

You are so sad.

Tatum is 26. He played in the playoffs as a 19 year old.

Simple question. Who has been more impressive in the playoffs up to the age of 26. Tatum of Miller?

Who has been more impressive in the regular season at 26. Miller of Tatum?

The playoff performance is so far apart that Tatum will almost play as many playoffs games by 27 than Miller did in his 20 year career.

Back in the 90's multiple players were alcoholics while playing at an all star level.

I mean the obvious comparison for Tatum is Drexler if anyone (though Tatum is tracking better).

Picking out a shooter as a comparison is so bad. At least pick Klay if you want a comparison (Klay's a better shooter by the way).

FG - You have some issues. You need to get help. You have created a world in your head that is true to you, but isn't reality.

You literally have 3 guys who thought Jordan is GOAT arguing against you. Does that not compute with you? Does that not make you re-think your life and what you are saying? Don't you think "there must be something wrong with what I'm saying if this is what is happening?".

It's like a group of people that don't like immigrants, and someone saying "Let's murder them", and everyone going "Well I think that's a bit too much and not based on a reasonable assessment of the situation". But then that guy doubling down and going to murder all the immigrants.

That's where we are at. You put forth a really bad case. You can think MJ is GOAT and acknowledge that he had good teammates and an all-time coach. It doesn't make his case worse. You can appreciate LeBron and it doesn't mean you can't think MJ is GOAT.

You posted something like 50 times in a row when no one would engage with you. I don't know how, if I did it, that I'd think it's a sane thing to do.

I think I'm done engaging with you.

I will admit I haven’t been reading the thread, because you say nothing of substance, and based on a couple posts it sounded like you went from saying Tatum was elite last year (“highly-assisted” off-ball jump shooter that had a dominant playoff run) to now worse than Reggie Miller. Even if you’re just saying they are about the same, that is still strange because Reggie Miller never won a title, and you were saying Tatum was elite last year.

It is interesting now that championships do not matter, and dominant playoff runs do not matter, for these two players when ranking them. But it is absolutely critical for LeBron. And by “interesting” I mean not interesting at all because you make literally no sense.

Lads he’ll just keep going, he’ll never stop. I have never seen any poster be worked to this extent over an extended period of time like in this thread. Fidstar, Dodger, Matt and others have ripped apart every fragment of his mythological and entirely fabricated world. Yet it does nothing to make him stop.

He is maybe the worst and most illogical MJ stan; but he represents the general thinking of the movement - this is a religious issue ultimately. MJ is God and LeBron is the devil and everything else is a matter of faith and devotion. You cannot argue against it with logic and stats.

You lack reading comprehension, so you can't understand my posts.

None of you can

I explained already that the 2-point era guys like Russell, Wilt and Kareem don't need to carry the scoring load because defenders could be MVP back then.... It's only the 3-pointer era that required MVP's to be dominant offensive players (45 of 45 MVP's), so that's the era that requires goat offensive dominance to be top 10 (carrying the scoring load).

Hope that helps

You're conflating my top 10 criteria with the Tatum/Miller debate.

Neither Tatum nor Miller fulfill my top 10 criteria because neither are top 10... Tatum happens to have a dominant title run - whooptiwhoop.... Highly-assisted players are capable of that, but it doesn't guarantee top 10 - it merely excludes ball-dominators because they can't do it and never have...

Again, you guys aren't competent enough to debate these topics... You can only speak about the game on the shallow level that you hear on TV... That's insufficient to debate me, and you will get embarrassed doing so, as you did itt many times.. You were proven wrong over and over, while being unable to poke holes in the "assisted rate" or "producing great teams" arguments (i.e. dynasties or dominant champions).. You fail to poke any holes because they aren't arguments - it's all historical record, aka 0 for 12.

Lebron set the record with 3 straight upset losses from 09' to 11', while also having the most losses ever with preseason favorites (and winning 60 games once from 11' to 17' despite 2 all-stars)... Accordingly, it's a historical fact that he lost with favored rosters the most and therefore fails expectation the most.

Btw, the 22-year old Amare averaged 37 on 55% against the 05' Spurs, while Kobe did the same thing to the 01' Spurs and 23-year Jordan set the record against the 86' Celtics and their #1 defense.. Meanwhile, Magic was FMVP at 20... So Lebron failed expectation in 07' and 08', while melting down in 2010 with 21 on 34% for the last 3 games to lose a 2-1 lead (-500 favorite)... And Lebron became a 12 turnover per game player in cluch-time of the 09' ECF, while also guarding Courtney Lee instead of Hedo... He's also too ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams and win with 18 on 38% from Mo like MJ always did with Pippen (and worse team defenses).

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"MICHAEL JORDAN ISN'T READY FOR REAL NBA BASKETBALL"

"MJ GETS COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN "

"MJ FAILS OUR EXPECTATION"

"JUST AS WE SUSPECTED - MJ ISN'T READY FOR THIS LEAGUE"

^^^ These would be the headlines if MJ lost a 7-game series by averaging 26 on 35% with 5 TO's like Lebron did in the 2008 2nd Round, or while getting swept in the 07' Finals..

So the narrative that Lebron met every expectation is proven false by 4 unexpected bed wettings, upsets and meltdowns in 07', 08', 09', and 10'.. These failures caused the biggest failure of expectation, aka "the decision", since no one thought that rookie Lebron would give up after Year 7 and team up with opponents thereafter.

TLDR: Lebron was a trainwreck that massively failed expectation with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player thru Year 7, so he failed everyone's expectation even more by giving up after Year 7 and teaming up with opponents thereafter.

I posted stats that showed you were wrong, and all you can do is make excuses.

Tatum's playoff stats peaked at 22 years old and have declined ever since, so the age excuse holds no water.. Tons of young guys like Oladipo and Tatum got to play in the playoffs at young ages because the East was decimated by Lebron's "decisions".

More importantly, you keep avoiding the point that maybe 5 or 6 guys are equal or better than Tatum in today's game, compared to at least 15 guys in 1995 for example.

So you've done nothing to counter the claim of today's weaker American talent, which MORE than offsets the superior international comp compared to prior eras.

These posts were literally back to back.

Some unbelievable cognitive dissonance on the Reggie topic.

I'd ask how someone can get carried but never get 'star help', but we all know it doesn't matter. It'll just be smug, asinine word salad.

Btw, by your own logic, the Pacers taking the Bulls to 7 shows how easily-beatable they were... LeBron would've annihilated them with that Pacers' roster, let alone his Heat or Cavs squad.