LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Curious what people think the reason is that Lebron quit for the last 3 games of the 11' Finals... We know why he quit in 2010 (personal reasons), so we know the inclination and pattern was there, but the reason for quitting was different in 2011 and I'm wondering what people think that reason was.

I think it was because it dawned on Lebron during the Finals that he wasn't as dominant as Wade at that time versus the Mavs or even the Celtics, so he essentially pouted and quit.. He would rather lose than have the masses know that he was carried and not the best player on his team.. Of course we know that he was still carried in other series even though the masses never really realized it (20' WCF, 11' ECSF, 16' 1st Round, 14' ECF, and many more).

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EFFICIENCY AT HIGH VOLUME - PLAYERS WITH 25 FGA AND 45% FG:

Regular Season:

Michael Jordan....................... 1987, 1993
Rick Barry.................................1967, 1975
Bob McAdoo........................... 1975
George Gervin........................ 1982
Kobe Bryant............................ 2006
Elgin Baylor............................. 1963
Tiny Archibald........................ 1973
Dominique.............................. 1988


Playoffs (10 game min):

*Michael Jordan......................1988, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Elgin Baylor............................. 1960, 1961, 1968
Bob McAdoo........................... 1974, 1975
George Gervin........................ 1975, 1982
Jerry West................................ 1966
Rick Barry................................. 1977
Hakeem Olajuwon.................. 1995
Kobe Bryant............................ .2007
Dominique............................... 1988
Allen Iverson............................ 2005
Kareem Jabbar......................... 1975

Hakeem scared to jump with MJ and visibly COWERED every time:

MJ has a bunch of tip dunks on Hakeem too:

Even a drop-step:

So you saying bulls couldn’t win as soon the system were Install in 1990 even with the goat and it’s normal,
Then having a bunch of new players , without mj on top of that , isn’t normal pippen failed to win a title or confirming pippen did poorly with 55 win ?
lol I guess you don’t see the confusion in this ?

Btw explain something to me , why 1995 was even worst since all those new players would if played much better in that system with a year more of experience and knowing each other better ?

Yup keep believing it’s the system lol
Yes we know FG -> results do not matter .
Nice religion you got there , sadly it will die with you because you don’t seem to have many followers believing in you and I must say , it’s a good thing .

Resume : the system is the key !
Mj couldn’t win title first year implementation of “the great winning 3 peat system” but won 55 wins it’s ok , mj just the goat after all.

Pippen a very bad players , couldn’t win the title and only win 55 games too with a lot of new players and still manage to make 55 wins without the goat !!!
Nah pippen suck lol …

Was fun talking to you FG .
But it gets boring to always rationalize contradiction over contradiction non stop .
Yes you won -> 2+2= 5
Good luck to you .

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List of players that MJ and Lebron faced

1) SHAQ

Top Lebron moments:

* 2004-2006 were the only years of Lebron's career where Shaq had some prime left and Lebron finished behind Shaq in MVP voting during those years, and lost the conference to him as well (2005 and 2006).. Lebron never dunked on him.


Top Jordan moments:

* Jordan won MVP over prime Shaq in 1996 and 1998 and swept Shaq in 1996 ECF.. He also dunked on him, shown here.

2. KOBE:

Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron watched Kobe win more championships during the time that both were in their prime, and also watched Kobe save the team in the 2008 Olympics.

- He missed the much-anticipated, Kobe/Lebron matchup in 2009 and 2010 Finals, because his top-seeded team underachieved by losing to lower seeds in earlier rounds.


Top Jordan moments:

- MJ dunked on Kobe in their first ever possession vs. each other, shown here

- MJ showed his protege how it's done by hitting the game-winner in the first game of the 1997 Finals, after Kobe had airballed 4 straight game-winner attempts against the same team earlier in the playoffs.

- MJ passed the torch to his protoge in the 1998 all-star game by scoring on him at will (5 times in head-to-head possessions, shown here).

3. DUNCAN

[Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron missed the infamous game-tying 3-pointer and needed Ray Allen to save him


Top Jordan moments:

- Jordan MADE his game-tying 3-pointer from the exact same spot during his first meeting with Duncan/Popovich in 1998 (the shot is shown here)... Then he dominated the OT, including 2 dunks over Duncan, shown here..

Later in that 1998 season, Jordan won the Finals against the team (Jazz) that destroyed Duncan's Spurs in WCF 2nd Round (Duncan/Robinson/Popovich's Spurs won 56 games in RS).

4. GARNETT:

Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron got his **** pushed in during 2008 and 2010 ECSF


Top Jordan moments:

- Jordan schooled Garnett in the 1998 all-star game (shown here) and during the regular season (shown here, hereand here).

- The only time where MJ and Garnett were matched up defensively for an entire game was during a 2002 contest - both were matched up at SF, and 38-year old Jordan scored 35 on Garnett in every way imagineable, including various blow-by dunks and layups, shown here

5. SHAWN MARION:

Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron got locked down by OLD Shawn Marion during the 2011 Finals, which was one of the greatest chokes ever by a star in the Finals.


Top Jordan moments:

- 38-year old Jordan hit the game-winner in PRIME Shawn Marion's face during a contest in 2002 (shown here), and then destroyed him for 41 points in another contest (shown here).

6. 2003-2004 seasons

2003 JORDAN..... 19.3 PER.. 20.0 ppg.. 44.5 fg
2004 LEBRON..... 18.3 PER.. 20.9 ppg.. 41.7 fg

Here's Brendan Haywood saying that Lebron was crying about guys trying to hurt him and then Brendan said that MJ got fouled way worse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfFiMC6c...

And this is what I'm saying - guys often don't play hard against Lebron anymore, and it started with the "decision" to set the league up so he can win some titles and avoid career embarrassment

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1999 KUKOC......... 18.8... 7.0... 5.3... 2.8 TO's... 18.6 PER... 3.0 BPM... 0.082 WS/48... 2.1 VORP
1990 PIPPEN'........ 16.3... 6.7... 5.4... 3.4 TO's... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP

So Pippen had his 2nd option in 1994 and also the closer that MJ never had, while also having upgraded talent at every other roster spot (Longley, Kerr, Harper, Perdue, etc).. So Pippen had a better and deeper cast than MJ ever had, yet he could only produce a 2nd Round loser and barely .500 in 1995, while MJ produced the goat dynasty and 2 three-peats.

The Bulls had a 3-peat offense mastered by 1994, due to MJ's off-ball game allowing it to run in the first place and grow into the 3-peat-caliber by 94'... So Pippen was gifted a fully-grown system and franchise in 1994, while Love and Bosh were building their franchises from scratch.

Love and Bosh were real franchise players by virtue of having the elite scoring ability required to add good scorers beneath them to build a sufficiently-talented team... This contrasts with a Pippen-led team like the 94' Bulls, which can't have a 2nd scoring option because they would replace Pippen as 1st option - Steve Smith and Rasheed Wallace were easily above Pippen on the 2000 Blazers, while 36-year old Barkley and Hakeem were the top options in Houston.

Infact, Kukoc also led Pippen in 4th quarter scoring for the entire 98' Playoffs and was preferred in the clutch, so someone as weak as Kukoc replaced Pippen as the preferred option... Let that sink in - Pippen simply wasn't a franchise player and he proved this by cratering the goat dynasty to barely .500 in 95' instead of growing a franchise like a real franchise player does... He simply lacks the scoring ability to provide a team with good talent capacity, i.e. the ability to add good scorers and talent beneath him.

Btw, Kukoc averaged 19 ppg and 5 APG in 1999 and was clearly better than 1990 Pippen across the board (see stats above), which means that Pippen already had his 2nd option scorer in 94' and upgraded talent at every other spot (Longley, Harper, Kerr, etc)... So Pippen had a better cast than Jordan ever had, yet he only produced a 2nd Round team and barely .500 the following season, while MJ developed the goat dynasty and 2 three-peats... Kukoc was also the closer that MJ never had by winning 5 games at the buzzer for Pippen in 94', which includes the famous winner in the playoffs against the Knicks (where Pippen sat out the game).

Maybe they cowered in the face of 3 franchise players from 3 different teams teaming up on the same team.

But certainly when Wade and Lebron were out, it was a letdown game for the opponent where the opponent usually underperformed their normal performance.. This is bball 101 and letdown games are a part of basketball.. Pippen was fortunate to benefit from this "surprise factor" and honeymoon period for the 94' season until teams were forced to wake up in the playoffs and following season.

And again, the 99' Bulls didn't have a coach running the triangle, or a core with any experience running the triangle, let alone developing to a 3-peat level like the 94' team had.... This 3-peat mastery of the triangle provided the chemistry in 1994 to offset the roster's league-worst talent, i.e. the only roster without a 2nd scorer in the starting lineup.

1999 KUKOC......... 18.8... 7.0... 5.3... 2.8 TO's... 18.6 PER... 3.0 BPM... 0.082 WS/48... 2.1 VORP
1990 PIPPEN'........ 16.3... 6.7... 5.4... 3.4 TO's... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP

So Pippen had his 2nd option in 1994 and also the closer that MJ never had, while also having upgraded talent at every other roster spot (Longley, Kerr, Harper, Perdue, etc).. So Pippen had a better and deeper cast than MJ ever had, yet he could only produce a 2nd Round loser and barely .500 in 1995, while MJ produced the goat dynasty and 2 three-peats.

I don't consider it success to be gifted a fully-developed system and franchise that the player didn't have to build, and then have a honeymoon period against sleeping opponents (before collapsing when sh*t hits the fan in the playoffs and following season).

Again, not impressive, and it's also a very predictable path and team downfall for a non-franchise player trying to play the franchise player role.

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Disqualifying factors for GOAT:

* 22 on 35%

* 26 on 35%

* Upset loss to 09' Magic

* Upset loss to 10' Celtics

* Goat choke in 2011 Finals

* Record loss in 2014 Finals

* Record loss in 2017 Finals

* Record loss in 2018 Finals

* Lottery during prime in 2019

* Lottery with all-star teammates in 2022

* turns everyone into spot-up shooter

* can't develop young players

* prevents elite roster construction (turns everyone into spot-up shooter)

* lowers everyone's assists

* low assist teams

* bad at ball movement and chemistry

* long list of teammates cratering alongside him

* lottery record on the championship level (22-33)

* -86 on the championship level

* can't win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player

* 22 years of needing more help

* #1 all-time in turnovers and missed shots

* losing record with preseason favorites (3-4)

* losing record with Finals teams (4-6)

* losing record with all-star teammates (4-7)

* losing record with 1 or 2 seeds (4-5)

* record 3 straight upset losses (09-11')

* horrific efficiency in clutch and game-winners

* no game-winners in Finals (0-7)

* never won 60 games in 6 tries with AD

* won 60 games once in 7 seasons with 2 all-stars from 11' to 17'

* never produced a great team

* can't carry the star category of scoring vs top teams, so he needs more star help (too ball-dominant at high-scoring levels)

* can't defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level)

* can't carry weak help over top teams (can't beat top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick)

* many weaknesses like turnovers, offensive rebounds, clutch efficiency, ball-dominance, mid-range

* needs 1st options and franchise players to play 2nd and 3rd option, i.e. cannot win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player

GOAT things:

* 2 three-peats in 3-pointer basketball

* 6 rings as the best player (twice as many as anyone else in 3-pointer history)

* didn't lose 3 straight games for 9 seasons from 1990 through 1998 (RS and PO)

* #1 all-time among completed careers for PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, and PPG

* 5 more ppg than everyone else in playoff history (50 game min)

* 70 wins + title

* 4 MVP's that included titles (1 included DPOY)

* the only title in history with only 2 guys in double figures for the playoff run (1997)

* 63 points playoff record

* 10 scoring titles

* MVP + DPOY season

* 2nd player with 3000 points in a season while simultaneously being the 1st with 200 steals and 100 blocks

* The only player with MVP + scoring title + 1st team defense + title (4 times)

* the only player to average 30/5/5 for their regular season or playoff career

* much more
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Only idiots argue 1990 was pippen peak and use those stats to try make A point …

And again 1994 , half the team was gone with no mj .

But since u can’t even comprehend what those 2 points means , no point arguing so good luck to you .

Yes I know 2+2 = fish .

Pippen wasn't good enough to build his own team and was handed a fully-developed system and great franchise... He cratered this system to barely .500 because he isn't a real franchise player that builds a team from scratch.

Pippen also can't score outside the system, while Kukoc averaged 19/7/5 outside the system, so Pippen had a better scoring teammate (Kukoc) than MJ (Pippen).. Kukoc was the closer that MJ never had.. You have no answer for this.

So Pippen had a better cast but only produced a 2nd Round team that "grew" to barely.500, while MJ produced the goat dynasty with less scoring hep.