LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

It's like if someone with the assisted rate of Klay Thompson or AD averaged 10 assists... It never happened until now.... Anyone that averaged 10 assists was a ball-dominator and low-assisted player, aka unassisted solo missions, so the off-ball Jokic is one-of-a-kind.

Look for Braun to have a good playoffs.. He's grown organically with this team, so he fits in perfectly and will be there when they need him to step up... Austin Reaves arrived at the same time as AD and grew too, but he has chemistry issues from playing with "ball-hog" skillsets like Luka and Lebron.. The key will be Murray because if he plays like an All-NBA player, then Porter Jr. turns into an all-star.

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Fallguys' predictions about SGA from earlier itt (for reference purposes):

So chalk this up as another correct prediction by fallguy, which continues to prove his doctrine correct.

But the prediction is based on history - history shows that ball-dominators need multiple franchise players on 1 team to win (super-teams)... So SGA and Luka cannot win unless Reaves or Williams play like franchise players (completely dominate)... And regardless if OKC and LAL prove to be super-teams that allow their ball-dominant leaders to win, history shows that ball-dominators like SGA or Luka never produce great teams, such as dynasties (3 in 5), or dominant champions/dominant title runs (4 losses or less).

There's a reason why Redick reads this thread and therefore understands the "attrition battle", as he articulates here with the same verbage used itt many times:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNY2389...

It's hilarious that Pippen making a giant leap in performance that immediately leads to rings is all Jordan, but Reaves making a similar jump is a massive negative for Lebron

Reaves' recent jump has resulted in him co-leading the team statistically with 27/7/7 since Lebron sat out with the groin injury on 3/10, while Pippen's improvement from 89' to 91' was exactly 3 ppg to a carried-level of 17.8 ppg.

Reaves ascension to an All-NBA level has demoted Lebron to a clear-cut 3rd option, which makes the Lakers the most stacked in the league quite easily... Unfortunately, Lebron's skillset has bad chemistry with every cast, so he never wins 60 games (0 for 6 with AD, or 1 for 7 with 2 stars from 11-17'), and therefore rarely produces Finals favorites... His crappy regular season records with preseason favorites causes a fall to underdog and a fake "upset" scenario later on, thus inflating his titles.

The case in point was today's game - the Lakers are clearly the most stacked team in the league, i.e. tallest ballhandlers in a ballhandler league, yet they were underdogs due to Lebron's inferior chemistry, and therefore inferior record.... Ultimately, he isn't an elite off-ball player as required of the ball movement systems used by every dynasty, which is why high-scoring primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators) have never produced a dynasty (3 in 5), or dominant title run (4 losses or less), while also never winning with "normal rosters of 1 franchise player (organic).

All nba reaves : 35th scorer in the league , 20p/5a/4r .458 FG%

1995 Pippen : 15th scorer in the league , 21p/5a/8r .480 FG%
AND pippen had 2.9 steal (league leader) and finish dpoy 2 !!
Fall guy : pippen sucked wasn’t allnba calibre …

Why bother respond to fall guy with his nonsense .
Just did it for fun since I don’t bother 90% of what he write no more …
But since his reply to someone was so dum …couldn’t help myself .

Ps: Fallguy 3 pages of wall text with nonsense coming ..

No one are dumb enough to compare pippen to mj or trying to say pippen has or the goat has mj .

And in 1994 pippen had many new players and still the team did 55 wins .
Losing in 7 the CF isn’t bad either .
Ps: pippen was the second best scorers for both teams !

But keep living in your bubble universe .

All we saying is pippen was pretty good player .

Reaves' recent jump has made him the co-leader with 27/7/7 since Lebron sat out with the groin injury on 3/10, while Pippen's improvement from 89' to 91' was exactly 3 ppg to a carried-level of 17.8 ppg.... So the italicized situations of Reaves and Pippen are completely different - Reaves is leading with elite production and dominant clutch takeovers, while Pippen was carried with weak production and literally zero clutch.

Reaves rise to an All-NBA level has demoted Lebron to a clear-cut 3rd option, which makes the Lakers the most stacked in the league quite easily... Unfortunately, Lebron's skillset has bad chemistry with every cast, so he never wins 60 games (0 for 6 with AD, or 1 for 7 with 2 stars from 11-17'), and therefore rarely produces Finals favorites... His crappy regular season records with preseason favorites causes a fall to underdog and a fake "upset" scenario later on, thus inflating his titles.

The case in point was today's game - the Lakers are clearly the most stacked team in the league, i.e. tallest ballhandlers in a ballhandler league, yet they were underdogs due to Lebron's inferior chemistry, and therefore inferior record.... Ultimately, he isn't an elite off-ball player as required of the ball movement systems used by every dynasty, which is why high-scoring primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators) have never produced a dynasty (3 in 5), or dominant title run (4 losses or less), while also never winning with "normal rosters of 1 franchise player (organic).

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Pippen's dunk frequency for 97' through 04'

We proved he wasn't.

Specifically, Pippen's injuries in 97' caused him to miss half the year in 98' and have low dunk frequency for those years, but he was super-bouncy and healthy in 99' and 00' with high dunk frequency (see stats above)... So he wasn't "done" in 99' and 00' like Lebron fans claim, which is why he got a historic contract and had higher dunk frequency, while his quickness continued via All-defense selections... His great health and bounce in 99' and 00' proves that he's simply a bad player outside the system that he grew up in, i.e. he can't average 15 ppg outside the system or be 2nd option over the 20-60th scorers in the league (Steve Smith, Rasheed Wallace, 36-year Barkley/Hakeem)... So it's been proven he was a bad player (system player).

Meanwhile, he wasn't much better in the system, since Dominique, X-Man and Barkley dominated him in the 92' or 93' Playoffs, while he was horrific in the 96-98' Playoffs (17 on 41%), and had worst-ever efficiency in the 93', 96' and 98' Playoffs... He also shot below league-average true shooting for every year of his playoff career except 91' and the no burden years of 01-03' or 89'.

In contrast to Pippen's system skillset of transition and flow points, he was gifted a better scorer than himself that could average 19/7/5 outside the system and be the closer that MJ never had (Kukoc).. The Bulls also upgraded every other position like Harper, Kerr, Longley, and others, so this was a better cast than MJ ever had... Pippen also had fully-developed dynasty culture and 3-peat system (the team wasn't in development stages), yet he still cratered the goat dynasty to barely .500 in less than 18 months and begged MJ to return.. So all the facts show that Pippen was just a low-producing bricklayer/lane-clogger and the worst clutch player ever (just a dunker) that was just lucky to land alongside the goat entering his prime.

The Lakers this year conclusively proves using real data and rudimentary logic that LeBron can easily play off-ball and facilitate for and develop teammates. Austin Reaves started as a 7 ppg scorer his rookie year, has improved every year under LeBron, and is now scoring 20+ ppg. All coming from an undrafted player.

Pippen, on the other hand, was a #5 overall pick. Despite being such a high draft pick, he only averaged 8 ppg his rookie year because Jordan was a massive ball hog, averaging over 24 field goal attempts per game that year. It wasn’t until Phil Jackson and the triangle came along that allowed Pippen to develop properly. Jordan only allowed him 7 FGAs per game his rookie year. And he didn’t break 14 until Phil Jackson came in.

Here is an article with quotes directly from Pippen himself, describing how hard it was:

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-sc...

This is more evidence, beyond what we have already conclusively shown, that LeBron James’ skill set is much better at organically involving teammates, while not requiring a specific customized offense to get the ball out of his hands, the way it was required for Jordan to be successful.

LeBron James being superior at developing players makes perfect sense, because we factually showed using mathematics and real, historical data that LeBron James contributes far more to total team assists than both Michael Jordan and Kobe. Proof, with real data and calculations, below:

Many misperceptions itt and falling for media fraud

Apparently Matt used to be the biggest MJ fan and Lebron-hater, but now he's flip-flopped... A flip-flopper... I don't know what that's like - to not really believe in anything because you don't understand anything... so you can just flip-flop on anything.. what a horrible existence.

High hold-time and low assisted rates take the ball out of teammates' hands and turn them into spot-up shooter.

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High-scoring ball-dominators leave teammates in spot-up roles with higher assisted rates:

....................................................... ASSISTED RATE

wade BEFORE lebron (04'-10'):........... 29.2%
wade WITH.... lebron (11'-14'):'.......... 40.3%

irving BEFORE lebron (12'-14'):.......... 31.9%
irving WITH.... lebron.. (15-17'):......... 32.7%

bosh BEFORE lebron (04'-10'):............ 55.8%
bosh WITH.... lebron (11'-14'):'........... 71.6%

love BEFORE lebron (09'-14'):.............. 62.7%
love WITH.... lebron (15'-18'):.............. 78.3%

mo BEFORE lebron (05'-08'):............... 39.2%
mo WITH.... lebron (09'-10'):............... 47.6%

THESE SPOT-UP ROLES LOWER TEAMMATES' ASSISTS

ASSISTS PER GAME AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT LEBRON:

12-14' Kyrie............... 5.8
15-17' Kyrie............... 5.3 (with Lebron)
18-24' Kyrie............... 5.8

04-10' Bosh............... 2.2
11-14' Bosh............... 1.6 (with Lebron)
15-16' Bosh............... 2.3

11-14' Love................ 3.0
15-18' Love................ 2.1 (with Lebron)
19-21' Love................ 2.8

05-08' Mo................... 5.7
09-10' Mo................... 4.6 (with Lebron)
11-13' Mo................... 5.3

09-10' Chalmers........ 4.2
11-14' Chalmers........ 3.6 (with Lebron)

99-04' Snow................ 6.9
06-07' Snow................ 4.1 (with Lebron)

01-05' Hughes........... 3.8
06-08' Hughes........... 3.3 (with Lebron)

2018 Ingram.............. 3.9
2019 Ingram.............. 3.0 (with Lebron)
20-25' Ingram............ 5.2

2019 Kuzma............... 2.5 (with Lebron)
22-25' Kuzma............. 3.8

2018 Ball..................... 7.2
2019 Ball..................... 5.4 (with Lebron)
20-22' Ball................... 6.1

00-09' Jamison........... 1.8
2010 Jamison............. 1.3 (with Lebron)
11-12' Jamison........... 1.9

04-10' Wade............... 6.6
11-14' Wade............... 4.7 (with Lebron)

19-22' D-Lo................. 6.7
23-25' D-Lo................. 6.2 (with Lebron)

09-21' Westbrook....... 8.5
2022 Westbrook..........7.1 (with Lebron)

15-18'' KCP.................. 2.0
19-21' KCP................... 1.6 (with Lebron)
22-25' KCP................... 2.2

By lowering teammates' assists, high-scoring ball-dominators produce low-assist teams.

Specifically, players that scored a lot of unassisted solo missions, i.e. players that averaged 25+ with under 40% assisted rate in a season occurred 96 times since 1997, and they averaged 18th in assists, while producing a top 5 assist team 5 of 96 times (5%).

Otoh, high-scorers that played more off-ball and were assisted by teammates more often produced higher assist teams.. Specifically, players that averaged 25+ with over 50% assisted rate occurred 87 times, and they averaged 10th in team assists, while producing a top 5 assist team 36 of 87 times (41%).

Your numbers don't include Lebron lowering all his teammates' assists (shown above), so your numbers are incomplete and lack the biggest contributor to team assists (teammates' APG).

Lebron's ball-domination turns teammates into spot-up shooter with higher assisted rates, which has a perfect negative correlation with their APG (shown above).. This is true throughout history - spot-up roles and higher assisted rates for teammates lower their APG... The spot-up roles and lower assists from teammates produces low assist teams that have poor ball movement and assist deficits in every series loss of Lebron's playoff career..

So the low team assist thing is the Achilles heel of Lebron's game and ALL high-scoring ball-dominators (SGA, Luka, etc)... Their horrible ball movement, chemistry and horrific brand of ball (spot-up roles) is why the ball-dominator skillset can't win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player or produce great teams (dynasty or dominant title run).

See previous post for linked, accurate stats.

AD arrived at the same time as Reaves and led the Lakers in scoring while winning the title, so he gets credit for jumpstarting Reaves' career and growing Reaves.

Without AD giving Reaves a big assist target and developing Reaves, Lebron had zero young players grow to meaningful producers alongside him in 22 seasons because his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter and craters their assists.

Franchise players certainly get credit for player development, but teams with multiple franchise players have to share the credit... However, Lebron has a massive track record of never developing young players, while AD's presence as a big assist target has always helped young players like Reaves develop... Klay, Pippen, and Parker also needed big assist targets to help them grow (Curry, MJ, Duncan)..

Finally, Reaves stats are weak with Lebron and amazing without him, so Lebron craters Reaves' game by turning him into spot-up shooter.. Reaves' PPG and APG crater alongside Lebron just like Love, Bosh, Westbrook, Hughes, Jamison, and basically any 14+ ppg teammate that he ever had..

Otoh, AD's highly-assisted skillset puts the ball in Reaves' hands, just like Duncan put the ball in Manu's hands, or Curry put the ball in Draymond's hands, etc... Highly-assisted 1st options are required for good teammate development, which is why Jordan's off-ball game grew guys like Woolridge, Oakley, Vincent, Pippen, Grant, BJ and basically every 14+ ppg teammate that he ever had.. Furthermore, dynasties require ball movement systems, which requires elite off-ball players, thus preventing ball-dominators like Luka, SGA and Lebron from ever having one.

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Kobe in 2014:

"It's more of a finesse game now.. It's more small ball.. It's much much much less physical... Much much much less physical.... You can't touch a guy without it being a flagrant.. Kids too sensitive nowadays"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CWBTZFNtVq...

This was 2014 so he must be rolling around in 2025

Hi Matt,

Hope all is well.

I'd like to congratulate you on having an opinion on something and being adamant that you were right. And then after examining all the information and delving deep into the stats you changed your mind about it.

It takes a man to admit when he's wrong. Well done.

Some other people can't change their mind even when everything they say is proven without a doubt to be wrong. Even when, deep down, they know they are wrong, they can't admit it and just keep saying the same thing over and over and over again pretending that it's true.

Denial aint just a river in Egypt.

Go to Hollywood and be an actor

Everything I said is historical and statistical record - there's no opinion or anything to change your mind about - I'm just informing you of the facts.

Would you prefer that I say ball-dominators produce high assist teams, ball movement systems and dynasties??.. That would be false - they never have... It's the best off-ball players that produced all the great teams, so they're in my top 10.. It's quite simple.

So you can keep pretending that there are these mythical ball-dominators out there that produced high assist teams, ball movement systems, dynasties, and won with "normal" rosters, but there aren't any, so you're the one ignoring all the stats and facts itt... You can pretend that ball-dominators grow teammates and increase their PPG and APG, but it's the opposite - they turn everyone into spot-up shooter, which prevents young player development and elite roster construction.. This is statistical and historical record, so carry on being immature, in denial and a child in your own mind.

Wowsers.... To what do I owe the honor of you posting itt??

Oh I know.... My last post whooped Matt's a** so badly that you felt the need to make a rare appearance and console him..

lol.

That's literally what you and Fidstar are doing, so thanks for validating my last 3 posts guys - they were pretty potent, I must admit - they made Fidstar break his retirement promise... And Matt is obviously a younger guy that doesn't know who he is or what he stands for, so he needs the encouragement and self-esteem boost.

Anyway, enjoy your day... I'm going to go hoop myself right now with the comforting knowledge that I've solved the fraud by explaining why it's such a MISSION to get Lebron a ring (mission impossible).. The AAU skillset of "downhill" ballhogging turns everyone into spot-up shooter and is a horrific brand of ball, so it needs absurd help and still mostly loses.. Imagine having 5 straight seasons of under 50 wins with AD... Or winning 60 games 1 in 7 seasons with 2 stars (11' to 17')... And also preseason favorites from 11' to 16', i.e. bed-wetting the regular season and then claiming underdog status, aka fraud... goat doh, lol

Btw, Stephen A is an idiot for saying Lebron would "destroy" him in a fight.. Lebron has never been in a fight and can't fight.. In a real fight, his leg would get snapped before he knew the fight started.

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Recent Thread Cliffs

BBALL 101 PERFECT CORRELATION:

Higher assisted rates and spot-up roles for teammates = lower assists for teammates

The only skillset that requires teammates to stand around in spot-up roles is high-scoring primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators), which makes them that worst skillset in basketball.

As the biggest ball-dominator in history, Lebron is the biggest culprit of turning teammates into spot-up shooter, which prevents young player development, elite roster construction, great chemistry, great teams, and winning with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player.

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BBALL 101

1) Team assists per game = the sum of each player's assists

2) Lebron lowers his teammates' assists and therefore produces low assist teams, just like all high-scoring primary ball-handlers (ball-dominators)

3) The reason why ball-dominators lower everyone's assists is because they're the only skillset that's requires long hold-times to get assists and unassisted solo missions to score, which leaves teammates in spot-up roles, thus lowering their assists.

4) Lower teammate assists and spot-up roles prevent the ball movement systems required by great teams, while also preventing young player development, elite roster construction, chemistry, great teams, and winning with normal rosters of 1 franchise player.

These are historical and statistical facts, so literally nothing could make me not believe the numbers, unless the numbers change by having a ball-dominator produce a great team or win with normal rosters.. So carry on as a fraud victim in ignorance - it's a relatively free country

Team Assist Ranking

Lebron's teams..... 15th
Title teams.............. 8th
Jordan's teams........ 7th

You're in denial about Lebron's bad ball movement and low assist teams, which caused assist deficits for every series loss of his playoff career.. So the low assists matter because they were the catalyst in all of Lebron's playoff losses.

The low assist teams and assist deficits in every playoff loss proves that Lebron produces weak ball movement that wins less.. And he obviously can't run the ball movement systems required of every dynasty, since they require elite off-ball players (Duncan, Curry, MJ, Shaq).

Furthermore, Lebron lowered all his teammates' assists and increased their assisted rate, so it's statistical fact that he turns everyone into spot-up shooter and never developed young players.. Teammates like Reaves see their stats crater alongside him and explode when he's gone... In contrast to Lebron's ball-dominance, AD was the big assist target and highly-assisted skillset that young players need to develop (Reaves, Klay, Manu, Pippen, etc).

I did the math for Wade, Bosh, Love, and others, but since you guys don't look at the numbers, I'll make it simple by using Wade to represent all of Lebron's teammates..

The amount of team assists that Wade creates alongside Lebron by having more assisted buckets (spot-up role) is less than the amount of assists he destroys by having his own APG reduced in the new spot-up role - i.e. modest increases in spot-up role/assisted rate produce large reductions in APG of 20-50%, or 0.5 to 3 APG per player.. (see assisted rate and APG stats in the first post of this page).

Since teammates play below their assist capacity when their spot-up role is increased by a ball-dominator, the teams of ball-dominators have low assist teams over time compared to teams where everyone plays to their assist capacity (aka high assist teams)... Lebron's low assist teams caused assist deficits in every series loss of his playoff career, so inferior ball movement is the catalyst in his losses, and therefore his Achilles' heel.