LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
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Crazy LeBron had a better third option than when the league was barren of talent.
Also, bc I'm objective, you should prbly mention that two of the top 75 MJ played with were the corpse of Parrish and Gervin's last year in the NBA (before Euro payday) at 33.
The decline in American talent has been gradual, so there was still good talent in 2014 when Love projected as the next Bill Walton except with better stats and modern style/shooting.
It wasn't until the rule change in 2017 that stopped "impeding" the ballhandler (basically mandating no defense) and also banning bumping cutters (effectively making basketball contact-less).. These changes produced the beginner format that we see now with the super-wide open paints, thereby encouraging/producing inferior "downhill" skillsets (not 5-man basketball) compared to previous eras..
Today's cookie-cutter format produces cookie-cutter skills that get shocked and stifled by the traffic and physicality of the international game.. The lesser spacing of the international game requires superior instinct, 5-man basketball, and touch/contested shot-making ability (in-traffic shot-making - far less cookie-cutter gather-step layups).
Especially when it been rejected by FG many times since it was votes by journalist and it didn’t mean anything when it was for some players FG didn’t like .
But when its a player he like , everything changes about those votes ….
The decline in American talent has been gradual, so there was still good talent in 2014 when Love projected as the next Bill Walton except with better stats and modern style/shooting.
You've got it reversed, the league was barren of talent when MJ played.
Remember? Normal one-star teams? That's what you always say, LeBron didn't win when the norm prior was one-star teams.
How can it be a one-star league but also filled with such premier talent?
Ah yes, Kevin Love was projected to be the next Bill Walton but a better shooter.
The #5 pick (and a doughy 6'8) vs the #1 pick (a 7 footer who wanted to be labeled 6'11 - which KG imitated in homage) and a true college GOAT (pretty much consensus top two are him and KAJ).
You have a complete preoccupation with one side of the ball.
Having a weaker scorer like Pippen as the top guy prevents teams from building, since they can't add other good scorers without supplanting Pippen... Accordingly, the Bulls predictably cratered to barely .500 in 95'.
Otoh, the Bulls could grow with an elite scorer like Mitch as the top guy, since you can put other good scorers beneath him... Elite scoring ability increases the team's capacity to add talent and build, which is why it's critical for all franchise players, except the rare all-time f
So Russell is awesome at number 2 because of massive rebounding and what the difference between 1994 and 1996 with 1995 failure ?
Lack of rebounding > Grant 94/ Rodman 96 .
But because it’s pippen , rebounding doesnt count no more ….
Typical FG
You are probably right about Kevin Love, but it's being harsh on Love.
Love joined LeBron as a 25 year old.
After 25 Walton averaged 10/8/3.
I think people expected better than that from Love.
They both played at UCLA and were elite outlet passers. That's the only thing that draws any comparison.
I'd guess Walton's hands prbly couldn't handle knuckle push-ups either.
You've got it reversed, the league was barren of talent when MJ played.
Remember? Normal one-star teams? That's what you always say, LeBron didn't win when the norm prior was one-star teams.
How can it be a one-star league but also filled with such premier talent?
"Normal" rosters with 1 franchise player are the norm for all eras except the small handful of "super-teams" that occurred rarely in history, i.e. 80's Celtics/Lakers or Lebron/KD super-teams... I would include Kobe/Shaq too, but Kobe was 20-22 years old during the three-peat, so they simply weren't a super-team in 2000.... and only Kobe's goatness at 21 years old would allow that status in 01' - Kobe dominated the Spurs while young Lebron was destroyed... Regardless, super-teams with multiple franchise players are the exception, not the rule.
So Russell is awesome at number 2 because of massive rebounding and what the difference between 1994 and 1996 with 1995 failure ?
Lack of rebounding > Grant 94/ Rodman 96 .
But because it’s pippen , rebounding doesnt count no more ….
Typical FG
What's better for a GM:
A) needing to acquire cheap role players like rebounders and defenders because you have a guy that can carry the scoring load.
B) needing to acquire massive star help and opposing franchise players as teammates because your top guy can't carry the scoring load.
Here's how it all works
a high-scoring primary ballhandler (ball-dominator) has a large volume of unassisted buckets that turns everyone into spot-up shooter by increasing their assisted rate... the spot-up roles and higher assisted rates of teammates lowers their assists and produces low assist teams.. this weak chemistry and ball-dominance increases at higher scoring levels, so the ball-dominator cannot carry the scoring load against top teams and needs all-time scoring help.
in addition to necessitating all-time scoring help, the weak chemistry of ball-dominators prevents winning with normal rosters of 1 franchise player, or a great team/dynasty regardless of cast.
All NBA 3rd team superstar is only a role player.
All Star forward is only a role player.
Good work FG.
Ah yes, Kevin Love was projected to be the next Bill Walton but a better shooter.
The #5 pick (and a doughy 6'8) vs the #1 pick (a 7 footer who wanted to be labeled 6'11 - which KG imitated in homage) and a true college GOAT (pretty much consensus top two are him and KAJ).
You have a complete preoccupation with one side of the ball.
The reason that I normally minimize defense is because we're normally talking about guys that can carry the scoring load, which has a greater positive impact on team defense than the individual defense of any 1 player.
Specifically, the ability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires less star help, which allows the GM to get better defensive help and build a #1 defense (15' Warriors, 86' Celtics), or a team that can play record defense on the championship level (23' Nuggets)..
Otoh, primary ballhandlers are ball-dominant at high-scoring levels, so they can't carry the scoring load against top teams and therefore need expensive star help that blocks the acquisition of good role players/defenders.. Lebron's ball-dominance and subsequent inability to carry the scoring load is a blocker to a great team defensive roster... This is the story of Lebron's career (the need for great scoring help that makes it hard to find defenders/role players).
Hope that helps clear up my emphasis on carrying the scoring load.
That has nothing to do with saying that Kevin Love was projected to be a better shooting Bill Walton.
One was a defensive anchor, the other could never win many games largely bc he was a defensive liability lacking requisite athleticism and/or size to be much of a backstop.
You prop guys up to tear down LeBron and tear down guys to prop up MJ. It's obvious to every single poster itt.
That also extends to the Tatum slander. He's a much better two-way player than Reggie. One guy is a scrawny 6'7 sg and the other is a 6'9 220 specimen that is a superior ball handler, rebounder, and passer. I loved Reggie back in the day but you keep repeating something as fact that is a dubious opinion.
Many misconceptions itt
You prop guys up to tear down LeBron and tear down guys to prop up MJ. It's obvious to every single poster itt.
That also extends to the Tatum slander. He's a much better two-way player than Reggie. One guy is a scrawny 6'7 sg and the other is a 6'9 220 specimen that is a superior ball handler, rebounder, and passer. I loved Reggie back in the day but you keep repeating something as fact that is a dubious opinion.
Miller did more than Tatum, such as taking teams to the Finals with no help in 00', or nearly beating the Bulls with no help in 98', or beating the Knicks with no help.. He was more dominant than Tatum, as the numbers show... (And when I say "no help", I mean that many good teams back then had "no help" because teams became great based on chemistry back then - this includes the Bulls, who had the same lottery roster from 89' but they simply got better at basketball/chemistry).
In addition to being more dominant, I'll reiterate that Miller's goat jumpshooting allowed him to produce great chemistry and teams without the supporting talent that Tatum's lesser chemistry and modern ballhandling needs... So Tatum's ballhandling means literally nothing and is a detriment compared to Miller, while the rebounding, passing, and specimen claims that you made are tertiary arguments at best that don't offset deficits in offensive dominance or brand of ball (needing less help)... Miller was the "Curry" of his time but simply didn't have a running mate.. Tatum has better specimen and rebounding than Curry too - it's a bad, losing argument.
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1993 1st Round
Dominique........ 30 on 44%
Pippen............... 15 on 33%
All NBA 3rd team superstar is only a role player.
All Star forward is only a role player.
Good work FG.
Yes great work by me, because you're knocking the common knowledge of players like Dominque Wilkins, who literally says that Pippen is a role player:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/838gMTNvE...
Shaq, Laimbeer, Isiah, Reggie Miller and many more say that Pippen couldn't score and wasn't on scouting reports... But we don't even need them because it's public record that Pippen had the lowest peak scoring ability of any notable sidekick - he was the only 90's sidekick that couldn't dominate or score at elite levels, and instead was mostly a transition player, system player, or hustler/defender type that required carryING (never a carrIER or co-carrier).
Btw, Ben Wallace had great media accolade just like Rodman, but he was still a role player at 33-years old for the 08' and 09' Cavs just like 35-year Rodman for the Bulls... And Lebron wasn't all-defense until 2009, so the Cavs' top defense in 07' and the reputed defense that nearly beat the 08' Celtics was due to experienced all-defensive guys like Wallace, Snow, Hughes, and Varejao... They also had leading shot-blockers like Zydrunas and bevies of "horace grant or better" rebounders.. It was a stacked defensive cast and they added a 3rd option in 2010 that was a better scorer than Pippen, so those Cavs had more help on both sides of the ball than the 1st three-peat Bulls.
You with the quotes...
It's so exhausting bc you just.never.stop. (or admit error).
What does this mean?
That team was extremely deep (they were 3rd in the East preseason odds, then won 56 games). And Tatum actually won the title.
We all know that if the reverse was true how the narrative would shift. Everything is backwards engineering based on whatever you want to 'prove' atm.
In general it's: tear down Jordan's teammates while propping up his era, and propping up LeBron's teammates while tearing down his era. Again, it's obvious to everyone what motivates you and your opinions.
Jalen Rose actually outscored him.
In what (fg inspired) world is the second leading scorer the one carrying a team with no help? LeBron was similarly outscored by a minuscule level by AD and you said AD carried him.
King of consistency.
Dale Davis was also an All-Star that year fwiw.
Jalen Rose got a bag after that year, Austin Croshere got a bag after that year. Dale Davis was an All-Star, you still had Rik Smits and Mark Jackson. Travis Best was the best backup pg itl.
Sam Perkins, Derrick McKey, young Al Harrington, Chris Mullin was still around. Jeff Foster didn't get any run and they didn't bother playing the #5 pick in Bender bc they were so deep.
lol Reggie alone... okay
(you're in my wheelhouse now, Indy was my team back in the day)
Hey look, here's Reggie Miller picking Scottie over MJ to guard Curry.
What?!? That's crazy talk.
Someone should show him gifs of MJ in the AS game against Kobe.
And here's Reggie stating the obvious fact that MJ couldn't win until he got Scottie.
Hey look, here's Reggie Miller picking Scottie over MJ to guard Curry.
What?!? That's crazy talk.
Miller is lying because MJ was the primary defender on all point guards like Magic, Payton and Isiah, or dominant wings like Drexler, while Pippen couldn't handle point guards or quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:
Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY in 99' - Pippen is joke to him:
But just a few months earlier, Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:
Here's another one - Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:
But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:
The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was the frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.
For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 and Game 5 of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..
MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas and Rod Strickland.. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (70%) in the 1991 Finals.
MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen
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NBA.com's Top Moments from the 1991 title run:
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NBA.com's Top Moments from the 1991 title run:
And here's Reggie stating the obvious fact that MJ couldn't win until he got Scottie.
There's a reason that America is ranked at the bottom educationally.... It's because large masses of Americans are dumb enough to think that out of the billions of players in the history of basketball on all levels, Pippen is the only one that the best player ever could win with.
If Pippen is the one guy out of billions that MJ could win with, then MJ isn't a top 100,000 player.... You or I are better than him because we could win if we played 10 MPG and were surrounded by Russell, Wilt, Kobe and Curry... Meanwhile, MJ could only win with Pippen - what a great "zinger" for the GOAT, smh... So clever.
Otoh, in contrast to Miller playing to the lowest common denominator of American intellect, the article from nba.com shown in the previous post shows how Miller REALLY felt about MJ in 1991 (also here) - this was back when they were still playing and without the extra 30 years of post-playing career politics to change the real answer.
What does this mean?
That team was extremely deep (they were 3rd in the East preseason odds, then won 56 games). And Tatum actually won the title.
We all know that if the reverse was true how the narrative would shift. Everything is backwards engineering based on whatever you want to 'prove' atm.
In general it's: tear down Jordan's teammates while propping up his era, and propping up LeBron's teammates while tearing down his era. Again, it's obvious to everyone what motivates you and your opinio
Miller had no star help and even less than MJ, although Smits did outplay Pippen in the 98' ECF and had a more dominant peak scoring ability.
In addition to the least star help ever, Miller also didn't get to face the most losing brand ever on the championship level (luka/lebron ball-domination) because he was facing the best brand ever and the only guys to win with the triangle (MJ and Kobe)... Tatum never faced anything like that and would cower in Kobe's presence, let alone outplay him or body slam him like Miller did... lol... This is getting out of hand.. So he can't hang with Kobe, and then there's the black cat.. What's Tatum going to do about that.
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