LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

MJ needs a ton of help huh.

And LeBron did not and yet lost a lot and had to leave Cleveland and got saved by allen and even with help lost vs dirk , etc….

Yet mj had basically the same team from 88 and finally he won once those rookie were ready and stayed in Chicago all along , he left came back with many new players and still won .
Mj must had lot of help his entire career since he won everywhere he went from college , Olympic, nba with many different players.
Mj luckiest guy on earth .

If MJ just "got the cards that he needed", what's the excuse for Duncan, Kobe or Curry having far greater winning frequency and equal or greater rings?

Did everyone happen to get the cards they needed and Lebron is the only guy that didn't?

And why can't Lebron seem to get the cards he needs?.. Isn't he the dealer?

The reality is that Lebron is the dealer but he maintains an extremely low win-rate with any hand that he deals himself because he doesn't understand and lacks the skill for optimal style of play (ball movement).. Essentially, he isn't fundamentally-sound, so he underachieves in the long run with all hands/casts that he deals himself, particularly on later streets (Finals).. To summarize, suboptimal fundamentals (Lebron-ball) underachieves favored talent like preseason favorites/pre-flop favorites (the best hands) - this underachievement includes weak records and perennial underdog status on the championship level with preseason favorites or teams with 3 all-stars (favored talent/the best starting hands).

So imagine barely ever winning with the best starting hands or starting with the best hand but always becoming an underdog by the river (finals) - yikes - that's Lebron's skillsetl aka bron-ball, a variation of luka-ball that underachieves favored talent by falling from preseason favorite/pre-flop favorite to underdog by the river/Finals - nightmare scenario.. He actually doesn't lay sufficient foundation during the regular season (doesn't get in enough money with his good hands), so he ends up losing money in the long run by the river (underdog by the Finals)

MJ was forced into playoffs as a low seed in Year 1.. Otoh, Lebron had 3 years to acquire veterans and develop a high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs, so he never had a low seed until 2021 (1st Round exit).. Ultimately, when Jordan had 3 healthy seasons to develop his team (88'), he won 50 and made the 2nd Round just like 06' Lebron, except he had no cast or coach, while Lebron had an all-star center, HOF coach and 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition.. By Lebron's 5th year (08') he still had a bummy 45-win team until he got the all-star spacing that he needed in 09' to be an MVP player and win 60 games..

The 09' Cavs had the 3rd ranked defense compared to 19th for the 90' Bulls, while Mo was superior to Pippen offensively across the board (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, scoring, efficiency) - so those Cavs were far superior to the 1990 Bulls on both ends and actually compared to the 91-93' Bulls by having more scoring options and better-ranked defenses.. Lebron simply gave up on the organic learning curve of chemistry and brand of ball (learning how to win) for a talent-based approach (team-hopping).. Dirk took advantage by grabbing the 1-star, organic chip that was up for grabs in 2011 - those Cavs would've had the chemistry and reputed defense to easily beat those Mavs.

Ultimately, both MJ and Lebron have a 10-year period where they both "had help" and this would be 90-98' vs 11-20'.. Compare their winning, records, accolades, and stats - it's not close despite Lebron having 5 seasons with 2 all-star teammates (0 for Jordan) and really it's 8 seasons with 2 perennial all-star teammates.

Despite Lebron's standard of "help" including an extra all-star teammate, he won 2 less titles during this period, along with 2 less three-peats, no 70-wih teams or dynasties, and 2 less MVP's.. He was a vastly inferior 2-way player as well (6 less 1st team defense and 7 less scoring titles).. He also got fresh new teams every few years and many casts to see if he could get anywhere near a 3-peat or dynasty, but he couldn't no matter who we surrounded him with.. so how many more hand-picked casts would he need before Lebron-ball is cast as an inferior style of play and basketball because it wins once in a blue moon regardless of cast?.. Winning once in a blue moon (and usually by teammate bailout, aka runner-runner) is the definition of a trash hand.

Btw, how is it the "right cards" to get a 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg compared to getting a 19-year old number 1 pick that averages 17-24 right away?.. Wiggins was a much better "hand" than Pippen, who was trash until his mid-20's, while needing the goat and a system that coddled weak iso players... Kyrie was also better a better "hand"than an 8 ppg rookie, as was top 10 player Love in 2014 (ready-made star).. infact Larry Hughes was a 22/5/5 first-team defender in 2005 and therefore a better "hand" than an 8 ppg rookie like Pippen.

Copy pastas all across the internet. Gotta love it. I wonder what Lebron would have to say about it…

To summarize, Lebron's rosters begin as the preseason favorite (the best starting hands) but suboptimal playing style causes these favored starting hands to fall to underdog by the river/Finals.. So he wins less than expected with the best starting hands due to suboptimal fundamentals/playing style.

Imagine your best starting hands always falling to underdog by the river and not winning as much as expected because of fundamental mistakes that you're making (ball-domination), or skill you lack (expert jumpshooting skill).. So as a poker player, you now know what it's like to play hoops like Lebron.

But carry on

If I was in my athletic prime:

combined with the skill that I developed since:

then in today's spaced-out, hands-off beginner format, I could average a few points off the bench at least, maybe much more.. I would eat completely differently from when I came out the womb if I could do it over and somehow control that..

I do think that with the world-class handle and jumpshooting form that I developed since my playing days coupled with the natural talent of my 6'7" wing frame w/ big man hands (shown above), that I would have a shot.. Even without all these things, I had opportunities to play in South America and Europe but chose b-school

I like that !
He really believe he had AA 7 times in a row (better then MJ) but in the end it was TT .

maybe much more LULLLLL

what, didn't deserve.

He led the league in steals.

It was Pippens job to defend, and MJ's to score.

Lebron is not a better defender than MJ because at his size he doesn't have the gas tank
to run the offensive and go 100% of defense.

Respect MJ he could go 100% all game long even though he played 36 holes of golf in the afternoon.

Certainly not from 1988 …
So what years u speak of ?

^^^ Why do people think this stuff?

It's because the media that they watch lied to them

Jordan was the primary defender on Magic in the 91' Finals, or Drexler in the 92' Finals, or Miller in the 98' ECF, or Isiah/Dumars in the 88-91' ECF, or Gary Payton in Games 3 and 5 of the 96' Finals..

Pippen was only the primary defender in Penny, who torched him, or other SF's like Dominique, X-Man, Schrempf, Rice or Larry Johnson, who all torched him..

Lebron wasn't all-defense for all of his 30's, so he wasn't required to be a good defender for half his chips and playoff runs

And he wasn't a crunch-time defender or he wouldn't give up FMVP to his man 4 different times, which included role players that doubled their normal scoring average (iggy)

fyi the homemade clips were taken @ 40-years old in flip-flops and those weren't the best moves but my girlfriend was just messing around and only got snippets..

If they gave me 36 minutes a game for the season ... 2.5 pts. per game. Money. I'm 6' 3" and I've often said if had two more inches I'd been a contender in the mid/small college levels. Yeah, I'm money for a bucket and change in the association. If I spot up for 3 and they let me gun at about 15-20%, I'd have some double fig games. +/- not good.

Don't we all wish we had two more inches.

It's funny watching fallguy waste his life away writing giant walls of text worshipping Jordan, when in 10 years time Victor Wembanyama will blow past everyone.

Dude is an alien made in a lab to play basketball. 7'4" with an 8' wingspan, and can run, pass, shoot, and handle the ball. He will lead the league in blocks every year while scoring extremely efficiently on offense. He can simply catch the ball at heights that are not available to other players, it's completely unfair and hilarious to watch.

To be fair SABR, he only writes the giant walls of text once and then copy pastas them all over the internet. I swear his V key has to be totally worn out by now.

https://x.com/WorldWideWob/status/175214...

It’s completely stupid stuff

He's a lightweight though and isn't a go-to player (yet) that commands rotations/shifting defenses/panic, so this lack of physicality or go-to ability means that he can't put pressure on a team's defense, at least not yet.. Teams can take a nap guarding him - he doesn't make anyone tired physically or force coaches to adjust strategically.

That's why his team gets killed in the attrition battle like they're a bad AAU team and getting blown away every night - teams go OFF on wemby because they aren't expending enough energy guarding him or his team

Otoh, guys like Jordan, Lebron or Wilt could wear teams down physically (and in Jordan's case, via brand of ball as well, aka ball movement) - Wemby can't do any of this (wear anyone down physically, via go-to jumpshooting, or via brand of ball = he commands no real defensive adjustments yet)..

The only way he will become a completely dominant player is by becoming a completely lights-out jumpshooter like Dirk... or Kareem's skyhook was like a lights-out jumper that commanded doubles, defensive attention and adjustments (won attrition battle)

Oh man. The fact that you’re athletic and have actually played basketball, and have had a successful career in business as well, is going to make some people REAL MAD in this thread.

In fact I would expect you to be swarmed by some unemployed shut ins that have never played any competitive sports in their lives before. They may, with the inordinate amount of time they have to defend and love on LeBron, attack your posts and maybe try to dig into your psychology in some weird pathetic creepy way. So be ready for that and don’t let it get to you fallguy. Not saying it will definitely happen but there are some strange cats in this thread so be ready for it.

Jordan’s career BPM is about 0.6 higher than Bran’s.

Magic’s career BPM is about 0.7 more than John Stockton’s

So, I guess I have to agree with you. In the play more seasons = GOAT Xbox NBA 2k nephew awards, Bran > Jordan in the same way Stockton > Magic. Looks like it is conclusive so there is no need for me to start that Stockton GOAT PG thread. It’s already obvious.

Good thing people that have actually played and understand sports do not take team success and championships into account (the goal of basketball isn’t to win titles. We all know the true goal is to play more seasons) otherwise people that know basketball may actually have Magic Johnson as better than John Stockton. Which that would never happen obv.

You’re right as usual TienTien. Thanks for posting. I think you’re batting 1.000 in this thread aren’t you?

Only guys with little experience wish this.

How many points did you average in college?

Yeah I was worried for a moment that you thought the clips were somehow demonstrating "world-class handle and jump-shooting form" despite being largely indistinguishable what you can see in 12U AAU games.

Wait, are you jealous of twog's athletic prowess and professional success? I'm guessing those are more impressive than anything you've managed as a research coordinator (or something similar)?

We're gonna need some video clips, twog has raised the standard for proof.

Lmao