Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
Iran has always been a calm and rational actor in international affairs.
I dont care about "blood and sand" arguments. Israel has the right to exist because the people that have been trying to destroy them the last 80 years have failed. And if they think the next 80 years are going to go any better, then they better hope Paradise has a lot of vacancies, because it is going to need them.The same as if some Native American said you were living on th
So might makes right. Ok so if you can get away with taking something it's ok to do so in your opinion. I have a right to something if I can defend it with force. And if I can't defend it with force then I have no right to it.
This is an idiotic philosophy you have. You should at least not be calling the Palestinians who are fighting against their oppression and ethnic cleansing by Israel terrorists. To you they should just be people trying to defend something which, if they can defend then they have every right to it.
It's not at all obvious why Israel embedding military facilities in civilian areas isn't exactly the kind of "human shielding" that Arabs are constantly accused of engaging in. It's the 21st century, every nation has military bases that are right next civil infrastructure.
Israel builds bomb shelters for its civilians when its military installations in civilian areas are being attacked.
Hamas fires rockets from densely populated civilian areas and builds bomb shelters for itself and refuses to let civilians in. Their actual goal is to get their civilians killed for political reasons.
Now, I understand that they are fighting an asymmetric war, and you do what you have to do. Still, very big difference.
This is an idiotic philosophy you have. You should at least not be calling the Palestinians who are fighting against their oppression and ethnic cleansing by Israel terrorists. To you they should just be people trying to defend something which, if they can defend then they have every right to it.
The "Palestinians" sided with the Nazis in WWII with dreams of creating their own national socialist ethnostate, lost and have been losing ever since. Whether you think it is "righteous" or not, their forever war is stupid and nihilistic. Same as if some Native Americans decided to wage a war to take back the city you are living in.
And the rest of the world should stop providing such perverse incentives to keep this hopeless forever war going. Time to move on, as billions of people before them who lost wars had to move on.
Now the Palestinians have Gaza and the West Bank to create their Muslim Arab ethnostate; they just have to give up ambitions to undo the 80 years of wars they lost to get where they are now. They aren't going to conquer Israel, same as no Native American are going to take back the city you live in. Time to move on.
The "Palestinians" sided with the Nazis in WWII with dreams of creating their own national socialist ethnostate, lost and have been losing ever since. Whether you think it is "righteous" or not, their forever war is stupid and nihilistic. Same as if some Native Americans decided to wage a war to take back the city you are living in. And the rest of the world should stop pro
What exactly is the evidence of Palestinians working with Nazis? From what I just looked at, nearly all of the Nazis in the British Mandate of Palestine were German Christians who were eventually mostly deported by the British, and an SS operation to recruit anti-British Palestinians was an utter failure.
British secret intelligence files have been released in London about a German wartime plan for subversion in Palestine, when the territory was administered by Britain.
The plot involved parachute landings, thousands of gold coins and the Arab Muslim leader, Mohammed Amin el-Hussaini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who was then living in exile in Berlin.
It also had the approval of Hitler's security chief, Heinrich Himmler.
But the project ended in fiasco.
Hostility
Palestine in 1944 was in a state of ferment, with the British Mandate authorities struggling to keep the lid on violent hostility between Arab and Jewish communities.
The agents were supposed to drop near Jericho
The Germans, on the other hand, wanted to make things a great deal worse and planned - with the support of the Grand Mufti - to arm Palestinian villagers and incite them to rise up against the Jews.
A small commando team of two German officers and three Arabs was formed in Berlin in early 1944.
Their leader, Colonel Kurt Wieland, an Arabic speaker who knew Palestine, had several meetings with the Mufti and they agreed a plan: drop by parachute, establish a base, gather intelligence and radio it back to Berlin; and recruit and arm Palestinian supporters with Nazi gold.
Just how it all went wrong is documented in the transcripts of interrogations by MI5 officers of Colonel Wieland and two of his men who were captured.
Meddling
Before the team flew out, the Mufti's people meddled in Colonel Wieland's careful plans, changing his equipment without telling him.
The first flight was abandoned.
Then when they were on their way, in October 1944, the pilot lost his way and flew too high when they began their jump.
They had planned a landing north of Jericho but instead landed south, lost their radio equipment and became separated.
Colonel Wieland and his two companions hid in an Arab village, in a cave and a ruined monastery.
They found no support for any Arab uprising and were captured a week later.
The other two men were never found.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1...
Is there some academic consensus that what you are talking about actually happened?
What exactly is the evidence of Palestinians working with Nazis? From what I just looked at, nearly all of the Nazis in the British Mandate of Palestine were German Christians who were eventually mostly deported by the British, and an SS operation to recruit anti-British Palestinians was an utter failure.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1...Is there some academic c
--The Grand Mufti was one important regional leader who had aspirations of allying with Nazi Germany with the goal of ethnic cleansing to create an Arab national socialist ethnostate. But he was far from the only one.
Generally, the Arab elites of this time (who were much more secular than the Arab elites of today, and many of whom had Christian backgrounds) were interested in following the Italian and German models of Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany and creating their own national socialist ethnostates.
The reason you know nothing about this, is that the US made a conscious realpolitik decision to downplay and obfuscate the link between fascism, Naziism, and Arab national socialism of the 20th century; as they were interested in forming their own regional alliances with former Nazi sympathizers (which obviously we can see would have been problematic if advertised to the US public).
Ultimately the Arab National Socialists of the 20th century failed to deliver on their promise of removing Israel to create a Pan-Arab ethnostate, and so they were discarded in favor of Islamists, who haven't fared much better.
Here is one well-received academic book from an academic who studied this time period.
With Islamist groups in charge, or even if not technically in charge having veto power to derail any movements towards peace and reconciliaiton, I think the internal political problems are a much bigger impediment than the external ones.
For access to higher education? You're trapping young people in a situation which you describe as violent nihilsm.
Also, being highly literate only gets you so far (and is probably a net negative) when your education system is focused around propaganda encouraging generally antisocial behavior, antisemitism and violence. Imagine a Grade 1-12 school system where people like Deuces McKracken are running the show, encouraging zero sum, violent nihilism . A very hopeless situation.
Sounds like a great reason to change the situation. The thing which would change the situation the most would be stopping the killingsw which encourage "violent nihilism". There are some people who are just saying give Gaza whatever they want; I'm not one of them. Most people suggesting peace put more thought into than that too. The idea is that a two state system is implement with a prerequesite being that Israel's right to exist is accepted. Violent nihilism is not taught under this framework.
If your goal is stop this type of education, then changing the situation is the best opion, similar to Northern Ireland or Bosnia.
so, lost in all the fireworks yesterday was the leak that the USA has been promoting war privately while publicly claiming to advocate for ceasefire. I mean, this was blatantly obv to anyone paying attention. the ceasefire talks have been straight up cynical means to pursue war since day 1.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/09/30...
furthermore, this is more proof that the narrative around Bibi somehow outplaying or manipulating or bullying the Biden admin is just false. they are working together on this war of extermination and conquest.
so, lost in all the fireworks yesterday was the leak that the USA has been promoting war privately while publicly claiming to advocate for ceasefire. I mean, this was blatantly obv to anyone paying attention. the ceasefire talks have been straight up cynical means to pursue war since day 1. https://www.politico.com/news/2024/09/30...furth
Victor are you really claiming politicians lie for political gain? That would be truly unprecedented, and I am sure it never happens outside of western countries.
Israel's foreign minister says UN Secretary-General António Guterres is "persona non grata" in Israel, and is barred from entering the country.
Israel Katz says his decision is a response to Guterres' failure to "unequivocally condemn" Iran's missile attack on Israel on Tuesday.
He accuses the UN chief of being "anti-Israel" and giving "support to terrorists, rapists, and murderers. Guterres will be remembered as a stain on the history of the UN for generations to come."
woww
Israel's foreign minister says UN Secretary-General António Guterres is "persona non grata" in Israel, and is barred from entering the country.Israel Katz says his decision is a response to Guterres' failure to "unequivocally condemn" Iran's missile attack on Israel on Tuesday.He accuses the UN chief of being "anti-Israel" and giving "support to terrorists, rapists, and murdere
Good
I would take things a step further with the USA.
As everyone now knows, Iran is in violation of the agreements they signed with regards to their nuclear program (shocker). None (or very few) of the agreed upon sanctions were put back on as a result though.
This is the first year the American intelligence community kicked up a report to the top saying Iran is definitely (100%) going weapons grade (ready inside a few years).
I submit to you that the USA would be very happy to let someone else handle that in the field. But would be more than happy to provide the intelligence, bombs, airbases, etc to make it happen.
Just a hunch.
If Trump wins, I'll say that's happening (regardless of what Russia thinks). If Kamala wins...we'll have to see. I'm not sure. I'm still inclined to think so. And I think the Saudies and a few others in the region would be very happy to see this play out too.
As everyone now knows, Iran is in violation of the agreements they signed with regards to their nuclear program
As everyone knows, the US pulled out of the agreement at Israel's urging.
Read the article.
Opportunity with risks:
In mid-September calls and meetings, Israeli officials outlined broadly that their military was preparing to make the shift. They didn’t offer details. Hochstein and McGurk relayed to their Israeli counterparts that — while they still urged a cautious approach — the timing was likely opportune for such a move, especially after Hezbollah had been significantly degraded in the months prior.
While Hezbollah had long said it would only engage with Israel if it reaches a cease-fire with Hamas militants it is battling in Gaza, U.S. assessments indicated at that point that Hamas wasn’t likely to agree to a cease-fire deal anytime soon. And that meant it could be a moment to focus more on Hezbollah alone – and to decouple the two conflicts.
Take advantage of the situation but don't launch a ground invasion:
The U.S. officials knew little of exactly what Israel was planning, but even as they supported Israel pressuring Hezbollah, they urged caution. They warned that if Israel went too far it could risk escalating the situation into an all-out regional war — something the administration has been trying to avoid for nearly a year. They also stressed that the only way to end the conflict was through a negotiated diplomatic agreement.
Officials in the intelligence community, in briefings and talks with members of Congress last week, had said they were increasingly worried about the potential for a direct ground confrontation between Israel and Hezbollah. Similar conversations were occurring in the State Department, where officials were concerned about the mounting civilian death toll in Lebanon.
This sums it up pretty well:
“Both things can be true — the U.S. can want diplomacy and support Israel’s larger goals against Hezbollah,” a senior U.S. official said. “There’s clearly a line that the administration is toeing, it’s just not clear what that line is.”
Behind the scenes, Hochstein, McGurk and other top U.S. national security officials are describing Israel’s Lebanon operations as a history-defining moment — one that will reshape the Middle East for the better for years to come.
We literally just saw this play out. USA is fine with Israel's strike campaign... I mean just look at the results. They have never wanted Israel to launch a ground campaign into Lebanon. Framing this as USA being two-faced is dishonest. They are trying to toe a very fine line, which pretty much sums up everything in the Middle East.
We're talking Biden and Sullivan here... they are extremely risk averse.
Really wish we'd wrap up the other two wars Israel has started before embarking on an exciting new adventure with Iran.
Donald pulled out.
Really wish we'd wrap up the other two wars Israel has started before embarking on an exciting new adventure with Iran.
It's the same war...
Read the article.Opportunity with risks:Take advantage of the situation but don't launch a ground invasion:This sums it up pretty well:We literally just saw this play out. USA is fine with Israel's strike campaign... I mean just look at the results. They have never wanted Israel to launch a ground campaign into Lebanon. Framing this as USA being two-faced is dishonest. They are
so risk averse that we are on the verge of a world war.
What would be the "world war"? i never get it when people claim that's the risk for Ukraine or for the middle east.
There is no meaningful world war if there isn't an USA vs China direct military confrontation.
Only Taiwan issues could potentially trigger a world war
Even if there was risk of a world war it does not mean that it is due to USA's actions. There's some bizarre thing where everything that goes right in the world is despite what USA has done, and everything wrong in the world is directly due to USA.
All sides involved in this have made big misjudgments in everyone else’s aversion to escalation. Hard to see how a belief in an ability to toe a fine line is not wishful thinking at this point.
