Israel/Palestine thread

you are the one who is ignoring everyone in the world who isnt "Western". this was exactly my point btw, most people in the whole wide word are not nearly as propagandized as Westerners.

nah, Im just pointing out your massive hypocrisy and selective outrage.

and if they had told him that his family was dead, you would find a way to criticize them for that btw.

I think you might be underestimating how much casual antisemitism and anti-white racism exists in the world, especially the Muslim world (but not exclusive). Like if you went to a random person in Pakistan, Indonesia or China and asked them their thoughts on Hitler and their guard wasn't up; they would probably say something along the lines of what a great guy he was and too bad he missed so many Jews.

But as I mentioned in my previous post, the average low information person in Pakistan saying Hitler was a good guy and supporting Hamas doesn't actually actualize into any meaningful actions that would benefit Hamas, Gaza or the Palestinian people.

For sure, which is why I specified westerners in my next post. Definitely agree though, most people around the world are not sympathetic to Jews.

You are (intentionally IMO) missing the point. The point of that entire spectacle was cruelty for the sake of being cruel. And the fact they literally broadcast it to the world, to show off just how cruel they were, gives a pretty good insight into the psychology of Hamas and their sycophants.

And your unwillingness to even process this shows how far along you are on the dehumanization scale of Jews.

A similar (but not equivalent) act to the Hamas spectacles wouldn't be how the IDF hands off hostages, but would be Netanyahu handing Trump the beeper and Trump giving a chuckle out of it. It isn't nearly as bad, because he wasn't mocking and torturing an individual to their face, but it showed a similar dehumanizing psychology that I personally dont subscribe to or support.

Of course only the west is involved in spreading propaganda.

Cmon 90% of Victors posting strategy is feigning ignorance or misunderstanding while pulling you down to his level. Ofc it’s intentional.

The whole asking someone to denounce anything is complete fascist pledging allegiance bs. I will judge you by what you post, not by what you don't post.

I'm not saying this for effect, I mean this, I think Victor has a much empathy for the Jewish hostages as you do, and more than a complete sociopath like Luciom does.

You seem like a bad judge of character.

fwiw, I didnt find anything from Jerusalem Post or Times of Israel that confirmed you allegation that they forced the guy to make a speech about his family. in fact, both publications reported that he asked the IDF about them upon his release. so, exactly like what Israel forces 1000s of Palestinians to do. many have been illegally incarcerated for years and have no idea if their families are alive or not.

https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/08/middleeast/israeli-hostages-did-not-know-loved-ones-died-intl-latam/index.html

CNN

Freed Israeli hostages did not know their loved ones had died | CNN

and again, Israel literally physically tortured the Palestinians until the moment the Red Cross recieved them. many went directly to the hospital.

further, they outlawed celebrations, raided the families homes, and even shot and wounded people that were receiving them.

spare me. anyone that supports Israel and the USA subscribes to the most dehumanizing and Supremacist ideology in modern history.

consistently conflating "the Jews" with Israel is a neat trick but no one is buying it anymore.

the West is just really good at propaganda. it creates extremely racist and gullible people.

Seems like you acknowledge Victor has zero empathy for Jews (or at least Zionists as he perceives them, which is basically just Jews), has completely dehumanized them, and you are agnostic towards this at best. That is the point.

I dont agree with your perception of me. But regardless, I certainly wouldn't expect you to just ignore my bigotry and call me a friend.

I'm the guy who advocated for a ceasefire and prisoner exchange on day 2. The Israel supporters are the ones who said that "Israel should respond in some way" even when it was blatantly obvious that the genocide would kill and hurt many of them .

So tell me who had more empathy and concern for the detainees?

By this logic I am the one who has empathy and concern for Palestinians because I think they should just all leave Gaza and get as far away from Israel as possible, in which case they would be perfectly safe from Israel.

And you certainly don’t think I have empathy for Palestinians, which illustrates just how bad faith the argument you are making is.

Incredible good news from Italy, we did NOT join the "stern letter" cosigned by 79 ICC signatories, condemning american sanctions against the violent, illegitimate operations of some people in the ICC.

Meloni stands strong against pressure in favor of honesty and legality against the illicit, horrific, abuses of the ICC

You're logic is off here. Do you care about Palestinians or not?

Not commenting on something (not addressing whether the substance here is correct or not) is not a declaration of being agnostic. I'm sick of this pledge of allegiance bullshit from just about everyone everywhere about everything.

Fair enough. I just find your case and Crossnerd's interesting because you both come off as so generally judgmental (IMO) of this type of behavior; yet in this case give a pass for reasons I dont entirely understand, which is interesting.

Most people have an operating system of zero sum tribalism, and once you figure out who they perceive as being of their tribe and who is "the other" their worldview is very easy to understand and not particularly interesting. Take it as a compliment that I find your perspective interesting.

Truthfully, I don't "care" about people living on the other side of the world. But I think 99% of people are this way, including 99% of supporters of the Palestinian cause.

But if I did care, I cant wrap my head around believing going back to the pre 10/7 status quo would serve this care. Nothing about supporting the Palestinian cause (as is) seems to have any possibility of helping the people; and this seems self evident to me regardless of whether I care or not.

I also dont see how the Palestinian people are served by western liberals and fellow Muslims being hyper critical of Israel and Jews and giving Palestinians and their supporters a mostly free pass. Seems to mostly be creating a system of unproductive incentive structures that dont serve Palestinians in any way.

Western liberals fully supported a genocide in Gaza and are now giddy at the prospect that it starts again. just read the last few pages of this thread to see that giddiness.

I think this is essentially correct about most political arguments, especially online, and the few people who care more than a little often misinterpret a lot of posts because they don't realize how little most other people care.

That being said, I think you can not really care about people on the other side of the world, but still be able to realize a certain course of actions aren't going to have any positive outcome. With the exception of a few senior Hamas members, it seems pretty obvious 10/7 and its aftermath have been a disaster for the entire Palestinian population. And it seems this outcome is in the realm of what one would reasonably expect.

I guess I really cant wrap my head around the psychology of someone who thinks:
a. They care about the Palestinian people, and
b. They think 10/7 was necessary and Palestinians should continue violent resistance indefinitely. Or even a lesser version of (b) such as
c. The rest of the world should continue to tacitly accept Hamas controlling Gaza

--And yet, there are possibly hundreds of millions of people in the world that would describe themselves as having such a belief structure.

--The 2 concepts seem so obviously diametrically opposed. It really does seem to be an example of what Orwell termed doublethink:

“Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.”

It's absolutely possible to look at the situation and conclude that enough players don't want peace that it's impossible to just make agreements now and not fighting just means perpetual imprisonment with frequent killing and that violent resistance is part of what is required to force significant change. I'm not saying that true or that it's not, but there are certainly reasons particular to this situation and examples in history to support that position.

I just dont see it. The entire premise of the Palestinian resistance movement seems to be something along the lines of:

If we refuse to make peace long enough, the Jews will decide it isn't worth the effort and just give up and leave; or we will eventually become powerful enough to just destroy them. And in the meantime we will always be able to rely on sympathy from the rest of the world, and compassion from many Jews themselves, to ensure the Jews dont just completely defeat us while they can.

But we are now 5 generations in, and most of the 10 million Jews in Israel dont have anywhere else to go even if they were inclined to. And at this point it is seems tremendously unlikely Jews are going to ever just leave or Palestinians will become powerful enough to defeat them. And it just seems the "endgame" is always just everyone else, especially Israel, running out of patience and empathy with the Palestinian people and them just being totally defeated, with A LOT of misery and suffering in the process.

I just dont see the vision of how things turn for the better traveling this path. I understand that many Palestinians and their supporters have been conditioned to be religious zealots and believe they are following God's will and if they keep the faith he will provide the necessary miracle to see Israel destroyed and them ascend. But for those of us that aren't religious zealots with such faith, I just don't see it.

Person with low EQ unable to understand that others are not like him, shock horror.