LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

^^ negative

And there was a rookie McGrady-for-Pippen trade in the works that MJ also didn't veto:

So Pippen was on the block all the time and a guy like Kemp knew he was far superior..

People forget that the Krause stated in the Last Dance that he was begging the Sonics every day of the offseason to take Pippen for Kemp and sweetening the deal for them with each passing day.. The problem is that Seattle fans knew how great Kemp was and rejected the idea - Pippen was inferior physically (shorter, smaller, slower, weaker) without the scoring skill to offset

The hate is palpable when u get own ….
#teamfallguy !

I suspect candybar hold the same view about Brady vs belichick in the other thread.
Brady wasn’t all that good , it was all about the coach, like MJ vs Phil …

Didn't he ask for Rodman too?

I'd subscribe to a fallguy YouTube where he does deep dives how Jordan is the GOAT and LeBron isn't even top 100 all time.

We know u hate him but u don’t have to distort fact .
Clearly the bulls (management) quit on the team and MJ , it’s not MJ that wanted a 3 peat champion team to be broken in 98 !
Especially after all the effort he did by building this team character and winning mentality through hard practice and second to none work ethic for over a decade !

MJ gave it all and management made like almost the single stupidest move ever made in any sports history by breaking a team like that just for ego …

Perfectly understandable at the age he was and had nothing else to prove and accomplished , not wanting to start all over when the changes was not even needed in the first place .
As winner like he was , not even having the chance to defend their title , I understand easily is frustration and his lack of interest to invest himself with that kind of team management , shrug.

Why do you guys even debate with Fallguy?

He literally wrote long paragraphs replying to my post about how the NBA is
less talented today. How the talent pool was deeper 30 years ago.

I didn't read the paragraphs, I don't have to.

But you can stop listening to his opinions just based on that.
Its amazing you people will talk yourselves into anything to support agruements.

But I mean common, y'all truly lack common sense wtf.

Have zero clue how fallguy just skimmed over my post, I guess ignored it.
I dunno, but couldn't make him understand simple logic. wtf

I mean I see the end of the world threw people like him. How screwed are we
that many people can't understand simple ABC, grade 3 logic. WTF Is the
earth flat too? hate fallguy

Haha, love the fallguy hate. The guy is the heart and soul of this hof thread

I have Jordan at 1, but 6/6 is literally the dumbest reason to put him there.

The Pistons killed him three years in a row. Good thing it wasn’t the finals I guess. And Golden State was a way better team than those pistons teams. They both went 1/4 against the best team of that era only difference is that Jordan didn’t even make the finals. By the time Jordan started winning chips the league expanded from 22 to 29. He benefited tremendously from talent dilution. No way around it.

Here is a simple question complaining about MJ not reaching the final.
Since u think it matters that much when u lose....
Can u name me one team lebron had to face in the east that were as good as the 80s celtic ? let alone the 80s pistons ?

How many time did lebron faced a team better then the lakers ?
Which is what MJ would had to face if he ever had any chances to just go through his conference in the 80s....

Lebron face only 1 great team in the final and everyone is like ho man what a tough road he had lol....

U want tough road ?
look at what tim duncan had to face just in his own conference his entire career and still he manage 5 rings !
Lebron had it easy and never did the 80s bulls had a team anywhere close at what lebron had in miami while having 2 all time great team just in his conference in the 80s.

come on man...
you want to complain how mj had it easy in the 90s ? ok
but suggesting MJ failed in the 80s is ludicrous with what he had to work with and had to fight agaisnt....

I'm not sure when you lose a series in a 7th game it's classified as "getting killed".

Would take the young Dr. J, David Thompson or Darrel Griffith for hang time > MJ. MJ had all the moves but it didn't ever look unnatural how long he was up there. It did to me for these other dudes.

Come on man???

McMuffin is not coming on anything.

So u believe MJ failed in the 80s having a weaker team then LeBron Miami (by far !) while failing vs better team too (Celtics/pistons ) then what LeBron had to face In Miami ?
How u call LeBron performance ?
A major bust ?

Ah yes…..

he really believes it , like being the Goat .

Then you have no eyes because the exact opposite was the truth

You're the only person in the world that thinks that - everyone else knows that there's no hangtime like Michael's - it's one of the more settled issues in hoops

Don't waste your time with a runner like McLoving - once you destroy his band-camp, small brain arguments, he will run away or play the deflection "i'm above this" game

Lebron fans downplay Jordan's superior win rates by essentially saying "small sample size", aka he had the "perfect" situation, but how do they explain the superior win rates of Curry, Duncan, Kobe, Bird or Magic?.. The sample size argument no longer works here, which means they're left with the fact that Lebron isn't as good at winning basketball games as MANY other guys, which means he's nowhere near GOAT

And btw, Jordan's "perfect" situation forced him to be the only player in history to win titles while leading the league in usage.. i.e. brand of ball normally declines when 1 player is carrying such a big burden, so only Jordan was good enough to play championship basketball while carrying the league's biggest burden.. Another thing about Jordan's "perfect" situation - Jordan is the only top 10 candidate that only had 1 all-star teammate, while everyone else had MANY all-star teammates.. And everyone in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led his team by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES, while being 1st team defense.. wow, what a perfect situation... otoh, Lebron wasn't required to be a good defender in his 30's (no all-defense in his 30's) and had 3 sidekicks match or lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs.

I hope that isn't serious.

Lebron faced the Warriors in his 13th season with a super-team, while MJ was in his 3rd season with a lottery cast against the 88' or 89' Pistons:

1988 Jordan......... 3rd season......... lottery cast
2016 Lebron........ 13th season....... super-team

* 3rd healthy season

Jordan would've 3-peated with an all-star center teammate, HOF coach and this acquisition:

05' HUGHES..... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN....... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5.... No All-D

So Lebron's casts from 06-08' > 88-90' Bulls.. The Bulls had no coach until 1990

Lebron's 2009 cast was also superior to the 1990 Bulls on both sides of the ball:

09' Mo Williams........ 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48...... #3 team defense
90' Pippen.................. 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48.... #19 team defense

^^^ So Lebron started with a better team on both sides of the ball, yet MJ still beat him to titles by winning the following year in 91', while Lebron kept losing as the favorite for 2 more years in 10' and 11' despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite or forming a super-team.

People forget that Lebron had a Year 6 team in 2009 - any top 10 candidate should have an organic juggernaut by Year 6 and 7, which is similar to Jokic, Giannis or MJ for example.. The only difference is that Lebron gave up on his organic roster despite a 1-star organic chip being on the table in 2011 that Dirk grabbed.. Lebron's Cavs certainly would've had the organic chemistry and reputed team defense needed to beat those Mavs, which is what the Heat lacked.

^^^ the bolded is a common misperception

The league expanded by drafting existing NBA players - each team was forced to make 2 players available for the "expansion draft" - every player drafted was already an NBA player.

Ultimately, it's easier to be 1 of 2 Finals-caliber teams in a top-heavy league (2 super-teams), as opposed to being 1 of many Finals-caliber teams in a parity league (90's).. Jordan's 2-star cast that was similar to most teams in the league, while Lebron enjoyed being 1 of 2 super-teams and guaranteed trips to the Finals.

Sounds like you don't know why you have Jordan #1 and are just going along with the flow.

6/6 is the best reason because Finals record is a reflection of the team ceiling that a player yields.. The first time MJ got a single all-star, he immediately took a Warriors-like dynasty to 7 games and didn't lose 3 straight games for 9 years (1990-1998), and won 6 titles in 7 years during this span..

By comparison, Lebron isn't good at winning... And even if you think Jordan's career is small sample, we can add the superior win rates of Curry, Duncan, Kobe, Bird or Magic to conclude that Lebron isn't good at winning compared to most top 10 candidates.

Specifically, he's demonstrably the worst winner of any top 10 candidate based on championship frequency, regular season records, or odds - 2 decades confirms that he's incapable of a sure thing, juggernaut or perennial favorite regardless of cast.
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Super-team = 3 franchise players on 1 team

Only Lebron's teams fulfilled the definition of super-team from 2011-2017, which is why his teams were preseason favorite from 2011-2016

Specifically, both the 2013 Heat or 2016 Cavs contained 3 franchise players compared to 1 for Curry or Duncan, so Lebron's team was preseason favorite from 2011-2016.. Again, Lebron had franchise players at sidekick and 3rd option, while Parker, Manu, Klay or Dray were never viewed or produced as franchise players..

To summarize and put into context, the fall from on-paper favorite (preseason favorite) to underdog or loser each year from 2011-2016 confirms that the initial talent advantage was more than offset by inferior brand of ball.

The biggest example of this negative-EV brand of ball was the 2014 Finals - the odds were basically even heading into the series, yet the Heat lost by record amount.. This gap doesn't represent the talent gap - it's the gap in brand of ball...

How is this not Lebron's fault?.. Aren't his teams incapable of playing like the Spurs, Warriors, or Nuggets, so he gets swept by them or record loss??.. Is this not fact or is there some season I'm missing where his team was known for having having great ball movement, high team assists or #1 offense like the Spurs, Warriors, or Nuggets?.. These offenses blow the doors off poor opponents like the 14' Heat, 91' Lakers, 17' Cavs or 23' Lakers.

The statistical and historical record shows that Lebron's skillset ties a coach's hands and forces them to put the ball in his hands, thus preventing the kind of blow-the-doors-off offenses that the dynasties run (Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls, maybe the Nuggets).. This isn't some opinion or "take" - it's literally the historical record - the best offenses and teams in history were ball movement teams run by fundamentally-sound bigs (russell, kareem, duncan, jokic) or expert jumpshooters (mj, curry, bird) - these skillsets commanded the best offenses and teams ever and they're the opposite of Lebron's skillset.
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THREAD CLIFFS

The period where both players "had help" was Lebron from 2011 to 2020 (4 chips) versus Jordan from 90-98' (6 chips, 2 three-peats, best championship record ever) and this includes 2 years off for baseball.

Despite teams with less star talent, MJ achieved this superior winning by maintaining MVP-caliber play for longer (25-35), while Lebron was MVP for a small window from 23-28.. Lebron also wasn't required to be a good defender for half his titles (no all-defense in his 30's), while MJ was 1st team defense for every title despite maintaining higher PPG and playoff APG (until Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone from 2015 onwards).

Furthermore, MJ or Curry's jumpshooting style maintains ball movement and brand of ball at high scoring volumes, so they can beat top teams at high volumes and therefore win with less scoring help like Klay or Pippen.. Meanwhile, Lebron's ball-dominance needs more scoring help like AD, Wade, or Kyrie - these franchise players match or lead Lebron in scoring for entire playoff runs so Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't have to carry the scoring load and brand of ball.. Indeed, Lebron never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load for playoffs and Finals of championship run) like expert jumpshooters do, aka Jordan, Curry, Kobe, or Bird (and even Dirk did somewhat).

History confirms Lebron's need for great scoring help since he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick - he simply can't beat top teams with bed-wetting sidekicks.. This includes his loss to the #4 SRS Magic despite 18 on 38% from Mo, while MJ beat top 5 SRS teams teams with crap from Pippen all the time, while also having worse team defenses than the 09' Cavs.. People exonerate Lebron due to his 38 ppg but no team can win a tight series when their primary ball-handler turns into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time (last 5 within 5) and chokes in the critical Game 4 OT that decided the series.. That's how the 2009 Magic became one of the 5 biggest underdogs to ever win a playoff series.. Lebron's clutch-time turnovers or efficiency, FT exploitability and inferior brand of ball (spotty jumpshooting) caused sweeps, upsets, record losses or getting locked up nearly every year of his career (04', 05', 07', 08', 09, 10', 11', 14', 17', 18', 19', 22' and 23') - that's a lot of years getting swept, upset, record loss or locked up.
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didn't read any of the last 3 fallguy posts.

Jordan is the GOAT but LeBron's longevity will chase him down if he continues to play until 43~ at a high level. I have a hunch the Warriors will trade for a 1st rounder, draft Bronny, and sign LeBron to the MLE en route to winning the 2025 NBA Championship.

ya I'm seriously doubting that.

The warriors are finished. They should probably clear out everyone. The only piece worth
keeping is Curry, but even he should go as I don't think he'll want to rebuild with a new team.

I think it would be good for Curry to go to the Spurs. He would fit nicely with Wemby and bring
all his experience. With a good draft pick they would have a nice nucleaus.

Lebron is not chasing anything down. He's declining now. Still flashes of greatness. But no way
Lebron in his prime the Lakers are around 500. I think Davis is too beatup for them also.

The most interesting team heading into the trade deadline is Philly. They have cap space and
if they can add once piece that could put them over the top. At least that's what everyone is saying.

LeMedia claims that he left Cleveland because he was never gifted a "pippen" but this is a lie because no one considers an 8 ppg baby rookie a great thing that solves all the problems, whereas Lebron was infact gifted an established, coveted 2-way player that was already achieving prime Pippen stats on both sides of the ball - the 26-year old Hughes averaged 22/5/5 and 1st team defense and clearly came into his own alongside off-guard Arenas.. Statistically, Hughes was vastly superior to 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball, while Ingram proved to be an all-star and Westbrook was a hand-picked MVP - so Lebron had plenty of "pippen's" but he simply doesn't fit with other spotty-shooting ball-handlers like himself.. His inability to fit with all player types makes him need more help and be inferior to Kobe or Jordan's superior scoring diversity that fits with everyone and yields superior teams/Finals records.. this is the historical record despite the fake stories and narratives spewed on LeMedia... Btw, it's absurd to think that Lebron would want a "pippen" since Pippen is the biggest lane-clogger in history based on the stats, (which doesn't fit with Lebron's stiff-arm), aka worst shooting splits ever for playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG - twice in 96' & 98' (title runs).