LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

You know who was really great? Ilgauskas. LeBron never makes the 2007 NBA Finals without him.

Why do I care?

Because I'm a baller.. Always have been.... Always will be.... and Lebron is an embarrassment that ruined the game, so he makes me look bad when I go exercise and play ball.

because people think I'm trying to get my "lebron" on.... or be like lebron.. It's embarrassing and makes me embarrassed to go out there and exercise/play... People say I look like Lebron, so they think that I'm trying to be like him, and that's embarrassing.. He's embarrassing.

If I was much younger - let's say I was a teenager in 2024 - I would NOT have played HS or college ball.. I would not have been attracted to the game... When I started playing ball in the late 80's, it was considered a tough game.. You had to be tough to play... that's what attracted me to it - it was HARD (as in gangsta) and it was highly competitive... There were rivalries with other athletes (in HS)... It was fiercely competitive... You had to really work on your game to get respect and it was a serious endeavor to get that respect.. More hoopers had a Stephon Marbury mentality and vibe - BALL WAS LIFE.. I remember when a key player would foul out of a big game in the HS playoffs - they would break down and cry on the bench because they had fouled out and couldn't play anymore.. **** was real

It's all changed now.. The game is NOT hard... You don't have to be tough to play at all... You don't have to be competitive and are EXPECTED to team up with your opponents - the media clamors for these team-ups - there's no competition anymore - participation trophies and in-season tourneys for the lottery teams.. Of course you can be soft as a grape and still be one of the best players because the rule changes have turned the game into a non-physical ROUTINE - not a real sport - the neat spacing looks more like a marching band - it doesn't look like basketball to me... Players AREN'T competitive anymore and don't care - and touch-free basketball isn't basketball

So if I was younger and coming up in today's game, I would never have played ball - it lacks the things I'm attracted to (competitiveness, hardness)... And I guess my life would be better for it since hoops turned out to be a waste of time.. If I could do it over, I would've continued being my high school's sports reporter for our school paper instead of quitting and focusing on hoops once I made varsity as junior.. If I knew the game would devolve into a softy game for boys, I would never have played.. I probably would've played soccer tbh because I had to play something and I was good at soccer and skateboarding.. TLDR: Lebron and Adam Silver ruined competitiveness and the hardness of basketball (Iman Shumpert agrees - he says Lebron "ruined the game" so don't take my word for it.. or use your intuition to know that if Jokic or Kobe got to hand-pick opposing franchise players to team up with, that this would ruin the game)

Goat floor-raiser? Here's a few historical facts that fly in the face of that false narrative:

1) Lebron had 3 years to develop his team into a high seed before entering the 2006 Playoffs, so he never had a low seed until 2021 (1st Round loss)

2) To win 40 games, Lebron needed an all-star teammate in 2005, while MJ needed nothing to win 40 games in 87'.

3) To win 50 games, Lebron needed an all-star center, HOF coach and 22/5/5 all-defender in 2006, while MJ needed nothing to win 50 in 88'.

4) Lebron only won 45 games in Year 5 (2008), before he received the all-star spacing that his stiff-arm needs to win 60 games or be MVP in 2009.. Accordingly, Lebron can't be MVP without great spacing, which is why he wouldn't be as good in the 80's or 90's when expert jumpshooting was required to shoot over packed paints.. Otoh, MJ was MVP without spacing (clogged paints) because he was an expert jumpshooter that could shoot over packed paints and also play off-ball

5) Lebron only needed 25 on 45% in the East Playoffs or ECF to win the 2007 Eastern Conference, which would be the worst series of Jordan's career.. In the ECF, Lebron had a 50-win 2 seed (#7 SRS) against a 53-win 1 seed (#6 SRS) - that's barely an upset and nowhere near the upset that Jordan had against the #1 SRS in 1989 (the "shot") - this historic upset required 40/6/8 on 50% from Jordan

6) Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs vs top teams in 2 decades), such as losing with 18 on 38% from Mo against the #4 SRS Magic in 2009 ECF.. He's too ball-dominant at high scoring volume, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams and therefore can't win with weak scoring sidekicks - he needs sidekicks that can match or lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs (11' Wade, 16' Kyrie, 20' AD), while MJ led his sidekick by 10-30 in every SERIES

But carry on

Lmao Iman Shumpert.

The same clown who said on a podcast that Jordan could come out of retirement and beat active LeBron James 1-on-1.

These idiots literally deify Jordan, it's hilarious and pathetic at the same time.

^^^ that's false because Kyrie played 12 of 14 games in the 15' East Playoffs, while Love was a rare all-star sidekick in the 18' East, so the only time that Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd)

And you'll complain about Love's play in the 18' Playoffs but Love averaged 20/10 against the only top 5 SRS opponents that the Cavs faced in those playoffs (raptors, warriors), so Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick..

So please let me know when he beats top 5 SRS teams or Finals teams with trash from his sidekick like 15.7 on 34% or something.. Imagine if AD did that - you guys would be signing petitions to get him out of the league, whereas Bulls fans LIKED pippen's crap numbers because the Bulls still won - Bulls fans were like "we LIKE it when pippen gets 14 points on 31% shooting... that's how we win"... lol... results-oriented fans, smh... but that was the vibe - no one gave 2 bird shits about Pippen's numbers because the Bulls were always winning - the winning spotlight made everyone give Pippen the benefit of the doubt, which is why he got undeserved media accolade.. no one benefitted from the winning spotlight more than Pippen (most overrated player of all-time)

^^^ the Finals streak began after taking the top 3 first options in the conference and putting them on 1 team (the "decision") - it's amazing he got props for making the Finals after that.. He diluted his competition by consolidating power on 1 team - the definition of stacking the deck.

But carry on..

Imagine if Kobe or Jokic got to hand-pick opposing franchise players to team-up with.. No one would respect their Finals runs after that, but Lebron gets props from the media because he made the media fear him ever since Klutch Sports lashed out at Barkley in 2017 - they got personal after he called out Lebron for teaming up with everyone.. Ever since then, the media has been scared of objectively covering Lebron - they don't want to get attacked personally like Barkley did, so they cow-tow to Lebron and support him even when he plays badly or acts badly (like his many beta meltdowns that the media would never support coming from another player - they knock KD for being far less sensitive)

Lebron wasn't required to be a good defender for the latter half of his chips (no all-defense in his 30's), while MJ was required to be 1st team for every chip...

So Jordan had to do more as a 2-way player by carrying the scoring load (which Lebron wasn't required to do) and be 1st team defense (which Lebron wasn't required to do)..

Btw, defensive versatility doesn't equal good defense and Lebron has been mostly knocked for his defense for many years now.. Jordan had to be a GREAT DEFENDER for every chip and carry the scoring load, while Lebron didn't have to be a good defender or carry the scoring load.

^^^^ everyone is exhausted after a long playoff run but being exhausted doesn't mean that MJ wasn't physically-capable of playing 1994...

If he had lost to Barkley, he wouldn't have retired and would've trudged forward just like Kobe or Wade did after their failed 3-peat attempts..

So Jordan could've played in 1994 just like Pippen and Grant did, but he just didn't feel like it because there was nothing to play for and that's his competitive nature - that's how he's wired.. The 3-peat was a substantive body of work that was superior to anything Bird or Magic did, so most people had him as the GOAT after 1993 Finals and his 41 ppg - it's still the highest peak that anyone ever reached in the sport (3-peat while averaging 41 ppg) - perfect time to retire on top as the untouchable GOAT - there was no motivation to continue because he was THAT much better than everyone at the time - new fans can't seem to comprehend how far superior he was to everyone, so they can't understand why he would retire.

If Lebron had Jordan's cast, his team would be considered substandard and inadequate.. He never got close to winning with the kind of cast that Jordan had in the 90's..

Specifically, 3 of Lebron's titles required 2 all-star teammates, while his 4th title required a teammate to lead him in scoring for the whole playoff run - when did MJ have this much help? (2 all-star teammates or a teammate to lead the scoring).... These are objective demonstrations of Lebron's superior help and lighter load (2 all-star teammates or a teammate to lead the scoring)..

Of course the Spurs swept Lebron and locked him up Lebron in 2007, while MJ was very competitive with the Pistons from 88-90' and was never locked up.

Lebron also had teammates lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ always carried the scoring load... so MJ did more.. MJ was forced to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level), which Lebron never did...

So again, MJ did more by carrying the scoring load and being 1st team defense, while Lebron had teammates lead him in scoring and he didn't have to play all-league defense.. Btw, MJ also averaged more assists than Lebron in the playoffs until Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone starting in 2015.. So MJ did more via scoring, defense, and even passing.
.

Interesting that you use the word deity

I was reading up on Haile Selassie and apparently the Rastafarians view him as a deity - Haile denied their claim that he's a deity, yet they continue to deify him.

I was actually disappointed for a few seconds after I learned of Haile's denial, but then I realized that ALL RELIGIONS are like that.. All religions think that some human being was infact god or a deity of some kind, including Christianity.. indeed, some dude or feller...... that farts and cracks jokes.... is infact god.... says all religion.. Once I realized this, I had a good laugh and continued listening to Sizzla's cowboy

How does this relate to MJ? it doesn't except that I understand he's no deity although tbh it gets confusing when I watch him play

I can't see hating on Pippen. Would like to see the list of non-center perennial All-NBA 1st team defenders averaging 18-22 pts. per game thru a dynasty as a distant second option to a scoring champ teammate every season on, pretty good shooting, 7.5 rebounds and 6 assists per thru the dynasty, iron man thru his first 10 seasons. How is that not one of the most valuable players in history? A way better offensive player than many comparable defensive stars. Zero titles for Mike without him, seems pretty sure. The perfect complement for MJ? I think he belonged on the top 50 list.

No hobbies. Confirmed.

Just endless copy pastas across 100 forums.

Pretty sure no job either.

well in the 6 championship run pippen was more like 17ppg,7rb,5ass
its ok/good.

- KD was not present when lebron beat the warriors so who cares if he was missing vs toronto ?

- ho i agree, look how lebron had a huge supporting cast when the cavs was able to win 67 win in 08-09 season and 61 the year after....
wins means very little in some instance , especially in the east.
So to go evaluating like u do just base on wins is hilarious...

and again look at the odds preseason .
toronto were at 1850+
yes i guess it reflects an amazing support cast....

while cavs ends up being 1st in eastern conference with 57 wins and being preseason quotes to win championship at +280 because they had a really sucking supporting cast....

Looks like his lowest scoring average in the six title years was 17.8, and over the six it was about 19.5.

Again, these are not the same teams. KD played during the regular season and they were just 57-25. Even with KD, they weren't anywhere near as good as the 15-16 team.

How moronic do you have to be? The Cavs won 67 with Lebron. The Raptors won 59 without Kawhi. The Cavs were a complete dumpster fire without Lebron even during those seasons - look at the lineup data.

Kawhi had huge question marks coming into the season wrt his health and was seen as damaged goods. There's a reason why the Raptors were able to get him for not much.

Because they had Lebron. You're so bad at this thinking stuff that you seem to have literally no idea that betting markets are considering the team as a whole, not just the team minus its best player.

You're a grown man talking about how you wish you continued being a sports reporter for your school paper in high school and you're calling other people soft?

Wait, isn't it Michael Jordan that infamously went to David Stern to complain about the Pistons being rough, which literally led to a rule change (flagrant fouls)? I don't recall Lebron complaining about other players being physical and advocating for a rule change.

^^^ Fixed

Pippen had the worst shooting splits ever for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG:- the biggest bricklayer and lane-clogger ever

17/7/5 on worst-ever efficiency is bad

17/7/5 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, which includes 2 Finals of 15.7 on 40%... And another Finals of 19 on 42% with 3 assists and 3 TO's (1997)

The following aren't questions for you perse because you're objective on this topic and acknowledge facts, but here's some general questions for fans:

When did Lebron win a Finals with his sidekick getting those numbers?

When did Lebron beat any top 5 SRS team with his sidekick getting those numbers?

When did Lebron win a title with a non-franchise player like Klay or Pippen as his sidekick? Lebron always had franchise players at 2nd or 3rd option (3 titles), or he had a teammate lead him in scoring for the entire playoff run (1 title) - this is objectively far more help than MJ's 6 rings

16.8 on 39% for the 96' Playoffs

16.9 on 41% for the 98' Playoffs

These title runs represented the worst shooting splits ever for any playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG.. Frieking title runs.. Twice

Accordingly, Pippen afforded opposing coaches the rare luxury of sagging off him and clogging the paint like Zion or Giannis are defended.. MJ won 6 titles with this crap and lane-clogging.

Overall, Pippen averaged 19/8/6 on 42% for his Finals career, while Lebron never won a Finals without 20 ppg from a sidekick and he only averaged 2-6 ppg more than sidekicks for his 4 Finals wins compared to 10-20 for MJ's 6 Finals.. So only MJ was required to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level)

TLDR: when did Lebron beat a Finals team or any top 5 SRS team with bed-wetting sidekicks (weak scoring & efficiency)?.. It never happened.. Lebron has zero carry-jobs vs top teams in 2 decades because he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams and therefore needs elite-scorers at sidekick that can lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs.

Most 1st options in the 90's enjoyed all-time floor generals at sidekick that averaged 10 assists (Stockton, Payton, Tim Hardaway, KJ), while MJ had deal with Pippen's weak 5 assists...

So among notable 90's sidekicks, Pippen had the worst passing, shooting, clutch or peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq).

Pippen was the only "system player" sidekick that relied on a system to coddle his weak iso game.. Otoh, every other sidekick was 1st option in the conference finals to lead their team to the Finals, which contrasts with Pippen averaging 10-30 less than MJ in every series.. So Pippen never got anywhere near 1st option or even 1b like every other 90's sidekick.

Similar to numerous sidekicks on 2-star title teams, Pippen didn't receive All-NBA until he won a title, so he was inflated by the winning spotlight like many other carried sidekicks from 2-star champions, aka Klay, Pau, Parker, etc... However, since the Bulls won the most of anyone in the modern era, Pippen's inflation was far greater than Klay's or Pau's - he got many All-NBA that he didn't deserve.. He deserved 0-3 All-NBA but he got like 6.. He was given the benefit of the doubt due to winning spotlight, so no one paid attention or tracked his performance - he was never knocked for poor play despite wetting the bed constantly.. Every close series or series loss was due to Pippen's poor play - check the historical record - Pippen wet the bed in every loss or 7 game series, and most close 6-game series... And even some sweeps like when he averaged 15 on 33% against Dominique's Hawks in the 93' Playoffs (Nique averaged 30 on 44%).

A+

No, no, no, no. That's going too far

lol wtf, Jordan was the guard of the two

Worst point you've ever made (unintended pun)

"1st options in the 90s" were bigs. If only MJ could've ran PNR with Stockton all game long...

i was talking during playoff runs.

again with your game wins the deciding factors about how a great team it is ...
So u telling me adding KD after they lost vs the cavs, the warriors were not a better team ? lol...
Tell me witch player u think KD replaced in the line up that made that team worst ?
Why cavs got totally crush when KD join the warriors the year after if they were even weaker with KD ?

Just u writing this show u troll, no need to go further on ....
We knew u were before but that tops it.

Is this like a stream of consciousness effort to demonstrate your gradual loss of faculties? What is even going on here?

I can sort of detect some vague attempts at arguments, but at this point trying to refute them seems kind of pointless (they are largely self-refuting, will leave it as an exercise for you in case your brain is still functioning). I wish I could laugh but your descent into the twog zone is more sad than funny.

This is like trying to figure out Lebron's best pass or best playoff performance - too many to choose from.