LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

FG thinks scoring is very important. Except when it's Bird ldo.

A franchise player is a player that was asked to build a lottery team from scratch because the team is going to build around them... Parish was drafted to Rick Barry's team and was simply never a franchise player or viewed as such..

So we've gotten away from what a franchise player is - it isn't a top 10 MVP voting - that's absurd - it's an elite producer that is asked to build a team from scratch.

Again, Bird won with a normal roster of 1 franchise player in 81', and this was after having the biggest turnaround ever for a rookie player by lifting a lottery team to 60 wins as a rookie - the biggest turnaround ever.

And Bird carried the scoring load for the 84' Playoffs with 10 PPG more than all teammates for the playoffs and Finals of a title run.. And of course he had great title frequency and chemistry.. So everything stands.. You've failed again to poke any holes in my top 10

7th in MVP is obv not a franchise player but you know who is?

Jalen Suggs

James Harden and Kawhi have never been franchise players, it's just logic.

So, Magic isn't franchise players because he wasn't drafted to a lottery team.

Got it.

Not Duncan either (being they were a 60 win team that just had injuries for a year).

Kobe as well.

I mean.

This isn't going horrible for you at all, is it?

How can bird carry the load of scoring when he didn’t had the most point in the final ?
Not even final mvp ?

Parish was 27 and already an allstar and 3 month later the next season he was all nba2…

Ps: bird had an amazing team in the Celtics for his 2 other rings and lost with it too ….

1981….Yeah normal team with 3 hall of famers , all normal lol.
That is why you blame LeBron losing vs the spurs
(1 top 10 player ever with 2 hall of famers )
in 2007 with not even an all stars lol ….

Really man , your so bias in your arguments , it’s not even funny anymore….
At least Lebron had the scoring load in 2007 by 10+ points while Larry wasn’t even the leading scorer in 1981….

Fallguy’s purpose in life is to be used as training for a r*tarded AI chat bot.

You don’t think tiny archibald never was or could of been a franchise player like dwade .
He only was in 1973 allnba1 and won a scoring championship and assist leader the same freakn year lol .
Cant even imagine why he wasn’t mvp that year but w.e ….
Ha yes he score more then Kareem !

When he won with bird he was 32 years old and nba2 and mvp9

What was dwade again winning with lebron , a suppose franchise player ?
Ah yes ->30 and 31 years old , nba3 and mvp 10 lol ,
even weaker then archibald lol.

The amount of bs you speak off is crazy !!
Normal team 1981 -> lol …

FWIW , it’s a good thing his stuck with basketball .
I think he could of turnout like PB2000 and other conspiracy theorist in the political thread .
At least it’s harmless being into basketball …for him and for us .

♥
That crack me up , thx

Fg has non consistency at all .

So just so we are clear: you are saying the player that has the most points scored in NBA history, and has won 3 championships in 5 years (2012, 2013, 2016) - your own definition of a dynasty - and was the team’s leading scorer and best player on every single one of those teams, is not able to carry the scoring load?

7th highest ppg average too .
Not top 10 , not scoring load enough 0o…

I'm going to use "FG logic" that it's important to go to a lottery team and win Championships.

LeBron - The year before he went to Cleveland (the second time) and Lakers they were lottery teams. Each one took him 2 years to win a championship. Miami was first round losers in 5 games, so basically a lottery team.

LeBron has done it three times.

LeBron = GOAT

He’s just doing it for attention. Yes he thinks Jordan was better than LeBron but he knows the arguments he makes are nonsense. He just likes it when people pay attention to him so I hope you guys are just doing this for amusement. Like poking a circus monkey for laughs.

He has used the term “Overton window” a few times. Typically this is a political term, but he learned about it recently and realized he could do something similar for his online basketball debates. The reason he’s putting LeBron James 12th all time is that he’s trying to shift the “Overton window” so far away from #1 all-time that only Jordan (or whoever — Russell, Wilt, Kareem, etc.) is in the discussion. This is also why he endlessly flip flops on what criteria he uses to rank players - when LeBron does something or is good at something it is “bad”, even if it leads to 3 championships in 5 years, but it’s “good” when any other player does it.

The problem is he took his attempted Overton window shift to such an extreme and nonsensical degree he has flipped Michael Jordan fans over to the LeBron side. His arguments, when taken to their logical conclusion (e.g. the whole assists thing, which LeBron is objectively far superior at) actually support LeBron over MJ as GOAT.

I think it’s just a weird hobby he has that he legitimately has taken too far because he doesn’t have anything else going on in his life. Or he’s just extremely stupid and doesn’t see the contradictions in his own arguments, but I honestly don’t think anyone that can figure out how to log onto the Internet is that dumb. It’s just a weird hobby imo.

I mean he's 2nd if everyone played from 19 to 40.

Ignore Fallguy for a moment, what do people think more generally about how this season from LeBron may move the needle? Barring injury he’s going to get 2nd team All NBA and MVP votes. Is it doing anything to move the needle on the debate out in the world?

You can't be anything but impressed by what LeBron has done this season.

I think so. This is the greatest season ever for a ~40 year old, by far. If you factor in longevity at all it has to matter.

LeBron still doesn’t play defense, flops, complains all game long among other baggage associated with him. I can’t root for the guy and can’t wait til he retires already.

The only thing that moves the needle is actually achieving goat-level stuff.

2nd team All-NBA isn't goat level.

Getting swept in the WCF isn't goat level.

MVP's aren't even goat level... Goat level would be winning the MVP, title, scoring title and 1st team defense - THAT'S the goat standard... 3-peats and 70 wins are the goat standard... Dynasties and dominant championship runs are the goat standard.

So Lebron fans have lost their logical way... They've been defrauded by the media into thinking that 2nd Team All-NBA and getting swept in the WCF adds to a goat case, lmao smh gtfo.... This is absurd on it's face but shows how much they hang on the media's every word.. They lack a high level understanding to arrive at their own conclusions and see the folly of the media's charade.. Carry on in ignorance - it's a free country.

Boom

Thank you sir for your input.. A welcome addition to the thread and insight into the objective reality of many fans, as opposed to the Lebron sycophants spouting media-inspired delusions and running cover for him itt

Not every team has a franchise player or gets to draft one, even if they have a lottery pick.. This is simple stuff that shouldn't require explanation.

It's bball 101 that a franchise player is an elite producer that was asked to build a team and the guy that the team is building around, and it's often a lottery team - this would include guys like Curry, Bird, Jordan, AD, Wade, Shaq, Jokic, Duncan, Kareem and others... Kobe was asked to build the 05' Lakers, so he's a franchise player as well, obviously.

Otoh, Suggs doesn't qualify - not every team gets to draft a franchise player - Suggs was never a juggernaut and never projected as an elite producer, so he was never viewed as a franchise player... Otoh a true franchise player came along and took the team over (Banchero)....

Btw, Bosh or Love qualify as franchise players too.. And also Kyrie was considered a franchise player that Lebron teamed up with.

LeBron James has a career field goal percentage of 17.8% and a 3-point percentage of 12.5% in clutch situations. He has missed 88 clutch shots in his career.

LeBrick’s career clutch stats. I’d take Curry over him all day, any day. Not franchise player numbers if you ask me.

Additionally, since joining the Lakers - LeBrick is 1-29 in game tying or go ahead fg attempts in the final 5 seconds of regulation or overtime games.

* Bird won with a normal roster of 1 franchise player in 1981

* Bird carried the scoring load in the 1984 Playoffs and Finals

* Bird has great chemistry (no ball-dominator skillset that imposes spot-up roles)

* Bird has great title frequency

CONCLUSION: Bird fulfills a vetted, non-statistical, context-based criteria for top 10, while Lebron doesn't.. He doesn't fulfill any of the requirements listed above.

Indeed, Lebron has the worst clutch efficiency, title frequency and Finals record of any top 10 candidate

He's 0-7 on game-winners or tyers in the Finals, and only 37% on playoff game-winners overall..

Otoh, MJ is 4-8 in the Finals and 50% on game-winners.. So there's a massive choke factor for Lebron where his clutch efficiency doesn't match his regular efficiency, but no such choke factor for MJ - his clutch efficiency was same as his regular efficiency.

Tiny was past his prime when he played with Bird, while Parish was never a franchise player - Parish never had his own team

So again, Bird won with normal roster of 1 franchise player in 1981, and then carried the scoring load in 1984 Playoffs and Finals... Of course, he has great chemistry and title frequency, so he fulfills all the criteria and you've been wrong on this for a while now... I'll keep posting these facts to remind you though, so it's okay.