LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Indeed, Lebron has the worst clutch efficiency, title frequency and Finals record of any top 10 candidate
He's 0-7 on game-winners or tyers in the Finals, and only 37% on playoff game-winners overall..
Otoh, MJ is 4-8 in the Finals and 50% on game-winners.. So there's a massive choke factor for Lebron where his clutch efficiency doesn't match his regular efficiency, but no such choke factor for MJ - his clutch efficiency was same as his regular efficiency.
Additionally, since joining the Lakers - LeBrick is 1-29 in game tying or go ahead fg attempts in the final 5 seconds of regulation or overtime games.
I'm going to use "FG logic" that it's important to go to a lottery team and win Championships.
LeBron - The year before he went to Cleveland (the second time) and Lakers they were lottery teams. Each one took him 2 years to win a championship. Miami was first round losers in 5 games, so basically a lottery team.
LeBron has done it three times.
LeBron = GOAT
AD lifted the lottery Lakers to championship in 1 year by leading the team in scoring and transforming the defense, so 2020 was a 2nd option chip for Lebron.
And Lebron was 1st option in Miami and Cleveland, but he still needed other franchise players to help him build the team, such as Bosh, Love, Kyrie and Wade.. He never built a team on his own as the only franchise player the way true top 10 players do (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Duncan, etc).
^^^ falls short of goat-caliber because the goat standard is to have a goat defensive play (the steal on Malone) AND the game-winner...
Lebron was supposed to get the block AND hit the winning-shot to be goat-caliber...
Just doing half of that (the defensive part) falls short..
You can see that right?... Then when we add the fact that he's NEVER hit a game-winner in the Finals, this further cements him as below goat caliber...
Everything Lebron does is below goat-caliber, such as team accomplishments like never having a dynasty, 3-peat, or 70-wins, and also individual achievements like lesser MVP's (no titles for half his MVP's and no scoring titles for any of them).
Being able to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) is a better demonstration of scoring ability than PPG.
And scoring is the "star" category, so carrying this category allows winning with less stars, which also allows more room for the GM to sign good defenders.
So the ability to carry the scoring load (against top teams) is a massively-important goat criteria that Lebron lacks.. This alone disqualifies him from GOAT, even without considering his horrific chemistry, title frequency, and inability to win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player..
Again, let's review Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load vs top teams - Lebron never carried weak help over top teams (never won a series vs top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick), and he never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level).
And we know why Lebron can't carry the scoring load against top teams - it's skillset based - he's too ball-dominant a scoring levels increase to beat top teams while carrying the scoring load, so he needs all-time scoring help like Luka, AD, Wade and then more franchise players at 3rd option.. It's quite an absurd amount of help for someone to need, especially a top 10 candidate.
Le dud needs other superstars to carry the water for him (unlike say Giannis or Jokic for example) and they didn’t leave for greener pastures when the going got tough like LeDud.
even if it leads to 3 championships in 5 years, but it’s “good” when any other player does it.
Lebron went 1 for 4 with Love, AD and Wade (except the Allen miracle), so he produced perennial losers at every stop and never produced a great team that mostly won for a material stretch, or a dominant champion that barely lost on a title run.
Since he never produced a great team (dynasty or dominant champion), while also having poor title frequency, worst-ever chemistry, and inability to carry the scoring load, he cannot be top 10 all-time.
Everyone in my top 10 fulfills these criteria better than Lebron, who fulfills none of them (great teams, carry scoring load, title frequency, great chemistry).
(e.g. the whole assists thing, which LeBron is objectively far superior at) actually support LeBron over MJ as GOAT.
We're seeing it play out right now - Lebron averages no assists right now because his assisted rate is up... There's a negative correlation between increasing someone's spot-up role or assisted rate, and their assists - when someone's assisted rate increases, their assists decrease... This is what Lebron normally does to teammates - his ball-domination and unassisted buckets increase everyone's spot-up role or assisted rate, which has a negative correlation with their assists (lowers their assists), thus producing low assist teams over time.
This is statistical fact, so why are you pretending like this isn't true?
Do I have to post the linked stats again?... And you may not realize it, but Lebron is the guy that brought this horrible brand of ball to the league - he's the first prominent high-scoring ball-dominator that really reached the mainstream after guys like Hill and Iverson a more subculture level of popularity.. Yet you want me to put the worst chemistry and most frequent loser ever in the top 10?... Absurd.
Le dud needs other superstars to carry the water for him (unlike say Giannis or Jokic for example) and they didn’t leave for greener pastures when the going got tough like LeDud.
Precisely - most players are forced to win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, while Lebron needed multiple franchise guys (super-team), yet still produced perennial losers with weak regular season records that rarely won titles.
Lebron needs more help but still wins less because his skillset of ball-domination turns everyone into spot-up shooter, which prevents elite roster construction and chemistry.
I'm not impressed at all because I accept the reality that:
1) it isn't anywhere near the best basketball we've ever seen (goat caliber)... He's currently playing much worse than prime Karl Malone, and it doesn't add to a goat case to make 2nd Team All-NBA, or get swept in the WCF - this isn't the best basketball we've ever seen and it isn't goat-level accomplishment.
2) He's carried by teaming up with the best players in the league, while no one else is doing that - it's sheer fraud and it's funny that after several weeks, no has come up with a viable reason for the Luka trade - the only viable reason is league-rigging for Lebron - this answers every question that anyone could have about the trade, and no other reason does.
3) he's juicing - his bestie Mims is a regular guy that can get HCG and testosterone from a regular doctor or even purchase it online, so the reason that he accessed the black market was for a pro athlete that can't go to a regular doctor - and he didn't access just any ho-hum black market like Tijuana or something - he accessed the biggest supplier of PED's to athletes ever.
Carry on tho.. I mean, ignorance is bliss and everything, but I'd still rather know what's really going on.
If LeBron cured cancer, FG would be "Not GOAT level, didn't cure diabetes"
Quick Cliff Notes on why Lebron isn't top 10 all-time
As a high-scoring primary ballhandler, Lebron has high volume of unassisted buckets that leaves teammates standing in spot-up roles, which lowers their assists and creates low-assist teams over time.. This dynamic of spot-up roles and low team assists is the Achilles heel of Lebron's skillset, since every series loss of his playoff career shows deficits in team assists, while the dynamic of turning teammates into spot-up shooter prevents elite roster construction, chemistry and great teams (dynasties or dominant champions).
In addition to turning teammates into spot-up shooter and not producing great teams (bad chemistry), he cannot carry the scoring load vs top teams, so he needs star help and GM's don't have room to sign defenders - these factors of bad chemistry and inability to carry scoring load result in never having a great team (dynasty or dominant champion) and inability to win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player..
For these reasons, Lebron isn't top 10 all-time (1. bad chemistry/spot-up roles... 2. can't carry scoring load/needs more stars, so GM's can't get defensive help... 3. can't produce a great team... 4. can't win with normal rosters or 1 franchise player)
The issue is that his "decision" ruined the game by turning the league into a less competitive league via collusion, load management and easy-scoring format.
So he's the reason that no one is watching and the NBA isn't considered cool anymore
LeDud is a compiler - as far as the intangibles he’s nowhere close. I also look at the other things that make a player great like leadership, loyalty, ability to carry a team during adversity besides pure stats. LeDud scores poorly on these intangibles.
He’s a narcissistic, insecure, thin skinned man baby. Hard to root for in my opinion. But to each his own.
LeBron still doesn’t play defense, flops, complains all game long among other baggage associated with him. I can’t root for the guy and can’t wait til he retires already.
PairPressure,
I understand that you may have a personal dislike for LeBron. Can you answer this for me?:
Do you believe LeBron James is not in the top 10 greatest basketball players of all time, because his career assisted fg% is below 40%? For reference, his career assisted fg% is about 38%, and he has had 9 seasons that exceeded 40%.
If you agree with that statement, can you please phrase the argument in your own words?
The modern NBA hands out assists like candy on Halloween. Ex.when LeBron kicks it out to a wide open player for a 3 he’s credited with an assist. That’s just a pass in my opinion. assist stats are so manufactured the last 10-15 years that it loses its value.
LeBron handles the ball so match that any pass he makes can be credited for an assist now a days.
The modern NBA hands out assists like candy on Halloween. Ex.when LeBron kicks it out to a wide open player for a 3 he’s credited with an assist. That’s just a pass in my opinion. assist stats are so manufactured the last 10-15 years that it loses its value.
LeBron handles the ball so match that any pass he makes can be credited for an assist now a days.
PairPressure,
I did not ask you about the assists that are credited to LeBron, I asked you if LeBron is ranked outside your top 10 GOAT list because his career assisted fg % is below 40%. Note his career assisted fg% is 38% and he has had 9 seasons above 40%.
To be precise LeBron’s career assisted fg% is about 38% right now. And he has averaged 9.9 field goals per game throughout his career.
Meaning of those 9.9 field goals per game, an average of 3.7478 are assisted. If LeBron averaged a 40% assisted fg%, he’d average 3.96 assisted field goals per game.
Someone is arguing that if LeBron James averaged 3.96 assisted and 5.94 unassisted field goals per game for his career he would be “highly assisted” like Kobe Bryant and Jayson Tatum, for example. But since he only averages 3.748 assisted field goals per game and 6.152 unassisted field goals per game for his career, he does not have the skill set to play in a motion or ball movement offense. That is a difference of 0.19 assisted field goals per game. Not even total field goals. Just a 0.22 shift in the difference of assisted vs. unassisted field goals. Yes we had to go down to two decimal points to get an accurate number.
Do you agree with this argument? If so, can you phrase it in your own words?
You are the only person on the planet that doesn't think Lebron is top 10.
Who is in your top 10 again? You moved Bill Russell from #2 to #13, depending on what you were arguing for. Sometimes highly assisted volume scoring is absolutely critical and key to be top 10, other times it isn’t the only thing that matters, and other skills contribute to winning basketball too.
It is these shifting arguments and narratives (reverse engineering your anti-LeBron argument, is how I believe you worded it), that makes it hard to follow your logic.
PairPressure,
I understand that you may have a personal dislike for LeBron. Can you answer this for me?:
Do you believe LeBron James is not in the top 10 greatest basketball players of all time, because his career assisted fg% is below 40%? For reference, his career assisted fg% is about 38%, and he has had 9 seasons that exceeded 40%.
If you agree with that statement, can you please phrase the argument in your own words?
We know that high-scoring primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators) have never been the leading scorer for dynasties or dominant playoff runs (dominant champions), and assisted rate is the way to statistically-describe who these "ball-dominators" are... Specifically, everyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler, and the high-scoring ones are "ball-dominators" that have high volume of unassisted buckets - this begins the domino effect of spot-up roles for teammates, low assist teams, and suboptimal roster construction.. It's kind of hard for a GM to construct a great roster with great chemistry when the 1st option turns everyone into spot-up shooter..
Ultimately, the best players ever undertook the less-stat-friendly role of playing off-ball a fair amount, which allowed teammates to PARTAKE in the stat-friendly role of dribbling and solo/missions... This maximizes the stats of teammates and allows young players to grow.
Otoh, Lebron and today's ball-dominators undertake the stat-friendly role of ball-domination and leave the less-stat-friendly roles to teammates (spot-up roles) - but it should really be Lebron that dominates in the tougher spot-up roles, while letting teammates maximize their stats by partaking in the playmaking.. Ultimately the goal is for no one to "playmake" - the ball should just be zipping around, but that's only possible with the kind of star that can dominate without monopolizing and stopping the ball.
PairPressure,
I did not ask you about the assists that are credited to LeBron, I asked you if LeBron is ranked outside your top 10 GOAT list because his career assisted fg % is below 40%. Note his career assisted fg% is 38% and he has had 9 seasons above 40%.
Bruh, PairPressure just joined the thread and likely is unaware of what you're talking about..
I would say it’s hard for his team mates to get credit for assists on his FGs when he handles the ball 90% of the time.
Again the NBA hands out assists stats like candy on Halloween so I’ll surmise a majority of Le Dud’s
Assisted FGs are also of the weak kind that doesn’t fit the criteria of what a real assist is as per NBA rule book.
Also home team statisticians will award more assists on average than normal so these are assist stats are skewed and not reliable in my opinion.
Bruh, PairPressure just joined the thread and likely is unaware of what you're talking about..
And that’s why I’m asking his opinion of the argument. It’s called communication. It’s extremely straightforward and really simple math. It’s a difference of 0.2 assisted field goals per game. Can’t you let him answer without freaking out?
I would say it’s hard for his team mates to get credit for assists on his FGs when he handles the ball 90% of the time.
Again the NBA hands out assists stats like candy on Halloween so I’ll surmise a majority of Le Dud’s
Assisted FGs are also of the weak kind that doesn’t fit the criteria of what a real assist is as per NBA rule book.
Also home team statisticians will award more assists on average than normal so these are assist stats are skewed and not reliable in my opinion.
So if LeBron averaged 0.2 more assisted field goals per game, and 0.2 fewer unassisted field goals per game, would you put him above Kobe Bryant, for example?
We know that high-scoring primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators) have never been the leading scorer for dynasties or dominant playoff runs (dominant champions), and assisted rate is the way to statistically-describe who these "ball-dominators" are... Specifically, everyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler, and the high-scoring ones are "ball-dominators" that have high volume of unassisted buckets - this begins the domino effect of spot-up roles for teammates, low as
Yes yes, we have heard this exact argument from you about a thousand times now. I wasn’t asking you, I was specifically asking PairPressure. Can you put your personality disorder in your back pocket for a few minutes and let someone else answer?
