LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Boom
Thank you sir for your input.. A welcome addition to the thread and insight into the objective reality of many fans, as opposed to the Lebron sycophants spouting media-inspired delusions and running cover for him itt
What?
you said defense from the primary scoring leader isn’t that important previously lol …
Fallguy,
Have you ever thought of recruiting some of your anti-LeBron friends in your anti-LeBron network to come join you? You know to get backup so you look less crazy. Man that fallguyGPT beat down by candybar really got to you didn’t it? Hope you are ok. That was really embarrassing but there are better days ahead.
Stop projecting your embarrassment of being proven wrong... We literally found pictures that show a bunch of guys who have Lebron out of the top 10 (shown on previous page), including PairPressure's Dad and maybe him too (8th at best).
PairPressure openly agreed with everything I said until you literally badgered and begged him to throw you a bone - so he did and left.
Not every team has a franchise player or gets to draft one, even if they have a lottery pick.. This is simple stuff that shouldn't require explanation.
It's bball 101 that a franchise player is an elite producer that was asked to build a team and the guy that the team is building around, and it's often a lottery team - this would include guys like Curry, Bird, Jordan, AD, Wade, Shaq, Jokic, Duncan, Kareem and others... Kobe was asked to build the 05' Lakers, so he's a franchise player as well, ob
Wait !
You really believe those 2 players could be the leaders of a winning title team in the nba in the years they played with weaker player then they are ?
Shouldn’t that be a franchise players definition ?
Ps: and yet tiny archibald wasn’t a franchise player caliber with bird in 1981 ?
lol ….
* Bird won with a normal roster of 1 franchise player in 1981
* Bird carried the scoring load in the 1984 Playoffs and Finals
* Bird has great chemistry (no ball-dominator skillset that imposes spot-up roles)
* Bird has great title frequency
CONCLUSION: Bird fulfills a vetted, non-statistical, context-based criteria for top 10, while Lebron doesn't.. He doesn't fulfill any of the requirements listed above.
I discredit all of this and your answer ?
Repeating what I discredit with factual stats that contradict what you originally said lol .
Guess nothing further to discuss 😀 .
Wait !
You really believe those 2 players could be the leaders of a winning title team in the nba in the years they played with weaker player then they are ?
Shouldn’t that be a franchise players definition ?
Defense was just 1 of the things that I agreed with.. He also mentioned flopping, whining and colluding.
Btw, franchise players don't have to win titles - they just have to be elite producers that the team is built around, and tasked with building that team into a contender..
Most franchise players don't actually succeed at doing this...
For example, Embiid failed... Maybe Love or Bosh would've been the same way... But regardless, we know that a true franchise player will make All-NBA without needing to get the winning spotlight of titles first, while many winning sidekicks needed to get titles before they got All-NBA (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Dumars, Parker, Ginobili, Worthy)...
Otoh, true franchise players like AD, Bosh, Love, or KAT make All-NBA despite doing nothing in the playoffs because everyone knows they're a boss and dominant players... But again, other guys like Pippen, Klay and lesser producers (non-dominant players) need the winning spotlight of titles to start getting All-NBA - this is common for winning sidekicks - they get inflated by the winning spotlight and are therefore an overrated class of players.
Stop projecting your embarrassment of being proven wrong... We literally found pictures that show a bunch of guys who have Lebron out of the top 10 (shown on previous page), including PairPressure's Dad and maybe him too (8th at best).
PairPressure openly agreed with everything I said until you literally badgered and begged him to throw you a bone - so he did and left.
Fallguy,
Can you try to recruit someone from your comprehensive anti-LeBron network who agrees with your central point?: that LeBron James averaging 0.2 assisted field goals per game under your made up threshold destroys team chemistry.
Note that this is not the same thing as thinking Jordan > LeBron. One is a sensible take that reasonable people can have. One is pants on head r*tarded.
You can use your entire anti-LeBron network if you need to. Use your full weasel rat powers. But they need to explicitly agree with your central point that a 0.2 assisted fg per game difference destroys team chemistry. You can’t weasel rat it, lie, and shift the goal posts. Now get to work and let’s see what you can come up with.
Tiny was past his prime when he played with Bird, while Parish was never a franchise player - Parish never had his own team
So again, Bird won with normal roster of 1 franchise player in 1981, and then carried the scoring load in 1984 Playoffs and Finals... Of course, he has great chemistry and title frequency, so he fulfills all the criteria and you've been wrong on this for a while now... I'll keep posting these facts to remind you though, so it's okay.
Tiny archibald,
32 years old mvp9 nba2 past his prime -> regular team
Dwade,
31years old mvp10 nba3 in his prime -> juggernaut team
lol you just can’t make this $h!t up 😀 .
Fall guy : Stats contradict my statement -> « ah fack , ok let’s put a narrative with nonsense to discredit stats I can’t dispute » ….
Pretty tiresome game at this point shrug
Bird carried the scoring load in the 1984 Playoffs and Finals, while winning with a normal roster in 1981.
So you guys are just wrong and it's proven time and time again.
It’s wrong that bird didn’t always carried the scoring load like LeBron and didnt win the final mvp while LeBron always did ?
Yeah it’s proven you can’t even acknowledge what’s true or not !
U change every stats or requirement to fit a players into top 10 depending how he perform and reject Lebron when he did it all lol..
Pathetic .
I discredit all of this and your answer ?
Repeating what I discredit with factual stats that contradict what you originally said lol .
Guess nothing further to discuss 😀 .
I discredited your discredits
Robert Parish joined Rick Barry's team as a rookie and was never an elite producer or viewed as a franchise player that a team was building around... And getting MVP votes means literally nothing - Jamison, Klay, Booker, Draymond and many more non-franchise guys get MVP votes.
So again, Bird won with normal rosters of 1 franchise player in 1981, and then carried the scoring load in 84', and of course having great chemistry and title frequency.. So he's top 10..
Being able to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) is a better demonstration of scoring ability than PPG.
And scoring is the "star" category, so carrying this category allows winning with less stars, which also allows more room for the GM to sign good defenders.
So the ability to carry the scoring load (against top teams) is a massively-important goat criteria that Lebron lacks.. This alone disqualifies him from GOAT, even without considering his horrific chemistry, title frequency,
Of course you add the sidekicks because again stats alone wouldn’t cut it but beside that , ok I’ll give it to you .
So find me 10 players that did 4 times anyway with a sidekick or without sidekick and earn 4 mvp title anyway ….
See that can work for goat debates but not for top 10 .
Only your hate can justify it …
It’s wrong that bird didn’t always carried the scoring load like LeBron and didnt win the final mvp while LeBron always did ?
Yeah it’s proven you can’t even acknowledge what’s true or not !
U change every stats or requirement to fit a players into top 10 depending how he perform and reject Lebron when he did it all lol..
Pathetic .
When did Lebron carry the scoring load when winning the Finals?
Never.
But Bird did for the 1984 Playoffs and Finals.. He carried the scoring load on the championship level, and therefore defeated max defensive attention..
By having the ability to carry the star category of scoring, Bird needed less stars and allowed the GM to surround him with defensive help...
I discredited your discredits
Robert Parish joined Rick Barry's team as a rookie and was never an elite producer or viewed as a franchise player that a team was building around... And getting MVP votes means literally nothing - Jamison, Klay, Booker, Draymond and many more non-franchise guys get MVP votes.
So again, Bird won with normal rosters of 1 franchise player in 1981, and then carried the scoring load in 84', and of course having great chemistry and title frequency.. So he's top 10..
I’m not talking about parish I’m talking about tiny archival lol
Nice diversion …
Of course you add the sidekicks because again stats alone wouldn’t cut it but beside that , ok I’ll give it to you .
So find me 10 players that did 4 times anyway with a sidekick or without sidekick and earn 4 mvp title anyway ….
See that can work for goat debates but not for top 10 .
Only your hate can justify it …
That post was pertaining to goat criteria - carrying weak help over top teams (winning a series vs top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick) is a goat criteria... Jordan is the only guy that did it more than once (5 times), and only a couple other guys have done it like Shaq or Duncan.
Otoh, carrying the scoring load for a title run (playoffs and Finals) is a top 10 criteria.. Again, carrying the star category of scoring requires less star help and allows the GM some room to find defenders.. So it's a massively-important top 10 criteria that Lebron doesn't have..
Lebron can't carry the scoring load vs top teams because he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume (insufficient brand at carry-job volume to beat top teams)... otoh, guys like Bird, MJ and Curry drop 40 while the ball moves, so they can beat top teams while carrying the load and therefore win with less help.
So I guess Wade and Derrick Rose were "franchise players" in 2018 even though they were past their prime?... How about Shaq in 2010?.. Or Dwight and Melo in 2022?
So looks like everything holds... That means Lebron it out of the top 10 right?
When did Lebron carry the scoring load when winning the Finals?
Never.
But Bird did for the 1984 Playoffs and Finals.. He carried the scoring load on the championship level, and therefore defeated max defensive attention..
By having the ability to carry the star category of scoring, Bird needed less stars and allowed the GM to surround him with defensive help...
Larry Bird 1984 playoffs 27.5 ppg. Finals 27.4 ppg.
LeBron James 2012 playoffs 30.3 ppg. Finals 28.6 ppg.
Anything else, lying weasel rat?
Stop projecting your embarrassment of being proven wrong... We literally found pictures that show a bunch of guys who have Lebron out of the top 10 (shown on previous page), including PairPressure's Dad and maybe him too (8th at best).
PairPressure openly agreed with everything I said until you literally badgered and begged him to throw you a bone - so he did and left.
Is that really a factors u want to use as a confirmation of what is true or not ?
I’ll bet any amount of money , giving you 20-1 odds , that I will find twice has much people that will put Lebron in top 10 compare to what you can find that put Lebron outside of top 10 .
So I guess Wade and Derrick Rose were "franchise players" in 2018 even though they were past their prime?... How about Shaq in 2010?.. Or Dwight and Melo in 2022?
So looks like everything holds... That means Lebron it out of the top 10 right?
You were talking about Lebron wins and bird winning championship with similar age second option and contributors ?
Why you change now the narrative , the team , the age and the results of the team and players you using ?
You just can’t help yourself change the goal post can’t you ?
No, it isn't
It isn't part of the definition and I only used the draft to better illustrate what a franchise player was.. I didn't think there would be nitpicking over it.
But any elite producer that the team is building around is a franchise player - they're usually drafted in the lottery, but not all lottery picks are franchise players, and some late-round guys like Jokic become franchise players.. But normally, they have to project as an elite producer and then actually produce... So Jalen Suggs was never projected as a franchise guy, even though he was a lottery pick...
Otoh, guys like AD, KAT, Bosh and Love were franchise players as elite producers that their teams were building around, but not Pippen, Klay or Tony Parker... And not coincidentally, guys like AD, KAT, Bosh or Love were dominant players that made All-NBA without any playoff success, while secondary producers like many sidekicks need the winning spotlight of titles to make All-NBA (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Parker, Ginobili, Dumars, Worthy, and more)..
You were talking about Lebron wins and bird winning championship with similar age second option and contributors ?
Why you change now the narrative , the team , the age and the results of the team and players you using ?
You just can’t help yourself change the goal post can’t you ?
I'm saying that if you view the 1981 version of Tiny to be a franchise player even though he was past his prime, then I guess Lebron enjoyed franchise players with Shaq in 2010, or Rose/Wade in 2018, or Melo/Dwight in 2022... (it's amazing how much help this guy had and yet he wins once in a blue moon).
Is that really a factors u want to use as a confirmation of what is true or not ?
I’ll bet any amount of money , giving you 20-1 odds , that I will find twice has much people that will put Lebron in top 10 compare to what you can find that put Lebron outside of top 10 .
Someone itt said that I'm the only guy that has Lebron out of the top 10, so I quickly found a bunch of guys that had Lebron out of the top 10 to show that I'm not the only guy... Many fans and players have Lebron out of the top 10... I'm sure there are some coaches too but they would never let it be known or they won't get another job again - but I guarantee that many coaches are like "I would hate to 'coach' that guy" (for numerous obvious reasons like being handcuffed into a ball-dominant offense... and then the bad brand needs so much help that the team probably can't get, so the coach gets fired).
Otoh, true franchise players like AD, Bosh, Love, or KAT make All-NBA despite doing nothing in the playoffs because everyone knows they're a boss and dominant players... But again, other guys like Pippen, Klay and lesser producers (non-dominant players) need the winning spotlight of titles to start getting All-NBA - this is common for winning sidekicks - they get inflated by the winning spotlight and are therefore an overrated class of players.
It's pretty ironic that a Jordan stan is about numbers and stat stuffing instead of winning.
It's pretty ironic that a Jordan stan is about numbers and stat stuffing instead of winning.
This isn't my criteria... I'm just stating what has been required historically to make All-NBA and get the media to vote for you... You either need to be a big producer like Bosh, Love, and AD, or you can still make it as a secondary producer if you're a winning sidekick and therefore get inflated by the winning spotlight (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Parker, Ginobili, Dumars, Worthy).
Your numbers get deflated when you sacrifice for the team.
Not true role guys (that can't score) like Draymond (or Rodman) but definitely guys like Ginobili. And there's really nothing that separates Klay as a player from Reggie Miller and Ray Allen besides circumstance.
Dumars was like a Jrue where he never was cut out to be a number 1. It's a case-by-case thing, not your hard and fast filtered rules.
When you say franchise players you really just mean elite first-option, primary scorers (I think).
In the real world, the market kind of defines a franchise player.
Larry Bird 1984 playoffs 27.5 ppg. Finals 27.4 ppg.
LeBron James 2012 playoffs 30.3 ppg. Finals 28.6 ppg.
Anything else, lying weasel rat?
Only Lebron had a franchise player and juggernaut scorer at sidekick that allowed him to avoid facing max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level):
84' BIRD FINALS............... 27.4
84' DJ FINALS.................... 17.6
12' LEBRON FINALS.......... 28.6
12' WADE FINALS.............. 22.6
