LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

I think James could adjust if he wanted to. I also dont think James destroys team chemistry if he plays with the right type of players. Some guys just are not a good fit with James stylistically speaking.

Guys like Harden or Durant would be poor fits with LeBron. Guys who have the ball in their hands a lot and who don’t really move a whole lot when they don’t have the ball.

Guys like AD and any post playing player would be good as he could play inside out or pick and rolls with.

Which is why it’s interesting to see how Doncic plays with James since they’re both very similar players. Could be great or could be a disaster - time will tell.

Fallguy,

You say you answer every post directed at you but I seem to notice a lacking of acknowledgement that either:

A) Your definition for a franchise player is extremely flawed
B) Kobe and Harden were not franchise players

Ah ok. Yeah that was my point all along — hard to say that LeBron James would be terrible in a Phil Jackson offense when he’s never played in a Phil Jackson offense.

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I think a guy that has averaged a reliable 27/7/7 and is known as one of the greatest playmakers of all time could adjust his game and play in an offense that facilitates great playmaking. Time will tell though — this Luka situation is a perfect experiment. If Luka and LeBron cannot adjust then the Lakers will collapse and they’ll be worse than last year (where they made the play in).

Glad you agree with my core point though. Looks like fallguy lost again. Where’d he scurry off to? Did he find some cheese?

DodgerIrish,
Good catch. He does tend to scurry away and avoid answering posts when it’s inconvenient, doesn’t he?

Also,

I never said Rui wasn't good, I said he's not a top half of the league 4th option. There's good players who are sixth and seventh men in a rotation fwiw. I also don't draw a straight line from ppg and how good you are, you do that. And you actually did say:

Then you followed up with the last ten games.

So you declared he's a 20 ppg guy when he's actually averaged 13 ppg every year of his career save the couple where it was 11.

And don't tell me he was on an upward trajectory that Bron has stymied. He was at 13 his first couple of years in Washington and then fell to 11 before he was traded (where Bron rehabilitated his value).

Cya fallguy better luck next time. Hope the cheese ain’t too salty.

The GOAT calibre is actually leading both teams across a 7 game finals series in points, assists, rebounds, steals and blocks to come back from 1 - 3 down against a 73 win team. When you were the underdog going into the series.

Things MJ never did, nor could do. Your move chief.

He contradicted himself about 5 times and said things to play both sides, basically because you begged him to.

But he has Lebron at 8th or worse, while his Dad has Lebron out of the top 10...

So despite talking out of both sides of his mouth, he clearly said more things that support me than you, as the previous posts show pretty clearly.

He basically something to placate you because you were literally begging and sounding pretty desperate - the posting shows this.. I said that you might be suicidal after his initial post that agreed with me 100%, and then he started softening his stance at your request and begging.. It's clear as day.

Wennington and Perdue were 5 ppg "putback guys" that fit into any offense, so you can't compare to a 1st option that monopolizes the ball.. The fact that you would try to make such a horrible argument shows that you lost.

You aren't understanding the argument and getting the facts wrong, so I'll quickly clear it up for you - 40% simply defines the skillset that never produced the best basketball (ball-dominators), but 47% is actually the cutoff.. Hope that helps.

If Lebron was capable of just slapping on the triangle or some ball movement system and having a dynasty, then he would've done it already - everyone would've done it, but obviously the right skillset from the 1st option is required, which is why none of the dynasties had a ball-dominator as the 1st option.. Instead, a highly assisted skillset that allowed great ball movement was required, such as bigs or jumpshooters like Curry, Duncan or MJ...

Otoh, Lebron's ball-dominant skillset isn't conducive for dynasty-ball or that caliber of ball movement and chemistry.. This is obvious and intuitive, which is why coaches that plan to run ball movement aren't hired to coach Lebron, Luka or any ball-dominator - not if they want to keep their job (Blatt).

My favoritist subplot itt is when you turn on other Jordan bedfellows for the slightest deviation from absolute worship and hate.

you're in the severe minority with this opinion, and the only reason you have it is because me and Robert Horry said that the Lakers have a "big 4", so you chose the lowest-hanging fruit to say that Rui wasn't that good... You obviously can't say that of Magic (Luka) or a growing Bird (Reaves) - the Lakers clearly have the best 2nd and 3rd option in the league, and some people think the best 4th as well.

No acknowledgement how far you were talking out your ass w the 20 ppg thing?

Shocking

I can see how that must be amusing.

But the reality is that most people lack the spine to stand by their statements.

Or they waver due to insufficient understanding of the subject matter... And that's what happened here - Matt said that a couple 5 ppg putback guys that fit into any offense "adjusted" to the triangle (Wennington and Perdue), and therefore a 30 ppg ball-dominator like Lebron could adjust well too - this rubbish was enough to make the Jordan bedfellow fold like a tent... This isn't my opinion - it's in the posts on this page...

I don't knock the guy - he's a regular guy that works hard for his family - he doesn't really care about this stuff and that's great obviously.

And crazy how I argued against the point you were obviously wrong about. It's low-hanging fruit bc it was a stupid thing to say.

Similarly, can we talk about that "franchise player" idiocy that thereby excludes "Jordan's clone"?

13-18 ppg as 4th option = 20 ppg as 2nd option

When I say 20 ppg, I mean with standard circumstances for a 20 ppg player, such as 1st or 2nd option

Lol on what team would Rui be a first or second option?

Over half the league could be the looter in a riot 20 ppg guy that Barkley coined.

Malik Monk could score 30 ppg if he had the absolute green light.

That’s unfair to blame a guy that was good enough to not put himself in this situation in the first place and reward a guy that sometimes did poorly under pressure and reward it with higher praise when he actually fix a situation he himself created ..

Ps: Kyrie did extremely well too .

Again, Rui is a 20 ppg guy easily if he was 2nd option or playing without the 2 biggest ball-dominators ever.

Now is the time in his career when he would be averaging 20 ppg if he was 2nd option or if he wasn't playing alongside the 2 biggest ball-dominators ever.

And Kobe was a franchise player because he was asked to build the 05' Lakers into a champion... If you want to say that Kobe needed a franchise guy to win (Pau), then that's fine - I don't dispute that - Pau was still a low-producer that forced Kobe to carry the scoring load and have great chemistry to get the most out of him.. So even if Kobe didn't win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, he still fits most of my top 10 goat criteria (title frequency, great chemistry, and carrying the scoring load so he needs less stars and allows room to sign defenders)

Proof that while there are Jordan fans that still rank him above LeBron, there are no Jordan fans that agree with fallguy’s assisted fg% argument.

Fallguy likes to conflate the two things because he is a lying little weasel rat: he pretends that someone saying Jordan > LeBron is the same thing as LeBron being outside the top 10 because he averages 0.2 assisted field goals per game under some made up threshold.

These are not the same thing, so don’t let the weasel rat fool you. There is actually no one in the world that agrees with his assisted fg% argument, and the reason no one agrees with it is because it is really really stupid. 0.2 fewer assisted field goals per game does not destroy team chemistry. Thinking that a difference of 0.2 assisted fields goals destroys team chemistry would be really stupid. It’s 0.2 assisted field goals per game. 0.2. Like don’t be a dumbass.

I hope he’s not projecting, as those with personality disorders tend to do, and he’s actually about to jump off the United Center roof, impaling himself rectally on the head of Michael Jordan’s statue. It would be a fitting way to go, but how would we amuse ourselves in this thread without fallguy? Hang in there fallguy. It will get better, I promise.

He would be the instant 2nd option for the 94' Bulls or some of today's worst rosters...

He's improved but you can't tell with Lebron on his team (although his numbers are up since Luka arrived)

Darvin Ham, Horry and many others say he's all-star caliber and he's always been viewed as a budding talent with all the tools.

No, no, no. Your definition is you have to be drafted to a lottery team and have the team built around you. The draft was a key component of your definition.

That's why guys who never made the playoffs without LeBron (Kyrie and Love) are franchise players where others are not.

Fallguy,
Have you ever thought of recruiting some of your anti-LeBron friends in your anti-LeBron network to come join you? You know to get backup so you look less crazy. Man that fallguyGPT beat down by candybar really got to you didn’t it? Hope you are ok. That was really embarrassing but there are better days ahead.

Lebron got the second most ever final mvp .
3 win in 5 years .
Is mj the goat because of 6 final mvp or because of its assisted field goal per game stats or w.e crap you can find ?
Enough said …

No point elaborating further …..
The rest is just excuses you try to find a reason to discredit a stats you can’t overcome that put lebron in the rightful place to be an easy top 10 player ever .

Lebron got 4 final mvp .
Easy top 10 -> end of discussion .

I'd argue guys that are maybe better third options than Reaves and definite multiple 4th options that are superior to Rui but you literally don't watch the games. So what's the point? I might as well have a debate with my seven year old nephew, he's literally more in the loop.

You only know about Rui bc you're obsessed with LeBron, if he'd stayed on Washington or was traded elsewhere you would have no idea who he was.

You don't even like basketball, you just hate LeBron and Jordan worship is wrapped up in your self-identity. If LeBron wasn't great then you wouldn't be so perturbed all the time. He threatens you.

1) The only reason the Cavs were underdogs in the 16' Finals was because they won a pathetic 57 games as the preseason favorite instead of flirting with 70 wins like the Spurs and Warriors - Lebron's weak brand simlly underachieved his favored roster, so he fell to underdog despite having the only team with 3 franchise players on 1 team compared to 1 for everyone else.

2) Lebron was down 1-3 is because he averaged 24 and 6 TO's to get a 1-3 deficit... You guys praise 1 or 2 closeout games but ignore the bed-wetting in the first 4 that caused the need for closeout games, which MJ wouldn't have needed... MJ would sweep any series that Pippen outplays Barkley, Malone, or any league MVP - that's obvious.. Having a sidekick outplay the league MVP is unprecedented help, so that's why he won - Kyrie also bailed him with the 2nd greatest shot in Finals history behind Ray Allen's (Jordan's is 3rd)... Btw, Lebron's bed wetting to start the 16' Finals was exactly like the 13' Finals where he averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games, and 23 on 43% for thru 6, which required teammate bailout to get Game 7..

3) Leading teammates by 1 rebound or 0.5 steals means literally nothing - it's a minor footnote at best - he had an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, so he never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level)... Carrying the scoring load is the most important thing, since scoring is the star category, so carrying it means needing less stars, while also allowing the GM more room to find good defenders... Otoh, an inability to carry the scoring load requires star teammates to outplay league MVP's, which is rarely going to happen, hence the horrific title frequency