LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Actually, LeBron’s career assisted fg% appears to be about 39% now. And he has averaged 19.6 field goal attempts per game throughout his career.
Meaning of those 19.6 field goal attempts per game, an average of 7.6528 are assisted. If LeBron averaged a 40% assisted fg%, he’d average 7.84 assisted field goals per game.
Someone is arguing that if LeBron James averaged 7.84 assisted and 11.76 unassisted field goals per game for his career he would be “highly assisted” like Kob
Using career assisted rate eliminates the noise so the definitions are clear-cut... A career assisted rate of under 40% = primary ballhandler, and this player-type has never been the 1st option for a dynasty or dominant playoff run (dominant champion).
Infact, the lowest assisted rate for a dominant title run is 47% by Duncan and Tatum in the 03' and 24' Playoffs, respectively.. Meanwhile, the lowest assisted rate for a dynasty is 50% (Curry and MJ)...
I used the 40% cut-off to indicate a ball-dominator because there's a grey area in the low to mid-40's, but anyone with career assisted rate below 40% was definitely a primary ballhandler, so it was an easy cut-off.. The fact that the lowest assisted rate for a dominant title run was 47% by Tatum and Duncan helped to show that gap between a clear-cut ball-dominator (under 40%) and a clear-cut non-ball-dominator (upper 40's and higher).
If you look at the type of player that is 1st option for dynasties and dominant champions, its non-ball-dominators like Curry, MJ, Shaq, Jokic, Duncan, etc... Ball-dominators like Lebron with lower assisted rates are nowhere to be found - they can't produce sufficient chemistry due to their ball-dominance and imposition of spot-up roles upon teammates, which hampers chemistry and roster construction.
I would say James is the better play maker and Kobe the better overall scorer/shooter.
PairPressure,
What brings you to the thread man? I noticed you have a registration date of 2010 and only a few hundred posts on the entire 2+2 forum. That’s a long time to go without posting!
And that’s why I’m asking his opinion of the argument. It’s called communication. It’s extremely straightforward and really simple math. It’s a difference of 0.2 assisted field goals per game. Can’t you let him answer without freaking out?
I used the 40% cut-off to indicate a ball-dominator because there's a grey area in the low to mid-40's, but anyone with career assisted rate below 40% was definitely a primary ballhandler, so it was an easy cut-off..
The fact that the lowest assisted rate for a dominant title run was 47% by Tatum and Duncan helped to show that gap between a clear-cut ball-dominator (under 40%) and a clear-cut non-ball-dominator (upper 40's and higher).
Using career assisted rate eliminates the noise so the definitions are clear-cut... A career assisted rate of under 40% = primary ballhandler, and this player-type has never been the 1st option for a dynasty or dominant playoff run (dominant champion).
Infact, the lowest assisted rate for a dominant title run is 47% by Duncan and Tatum in the 03' and 24' Playoffs, respectively.. Meanwhile, the lowest assisted rate for a dynasty is 50% (Curry and MJ)...
I used the 40% cut-off to indicate a ball-do
Yes yes. Like I said, you have made this argument a thousand times now. We get it — you don’t understand math, probability, nor statistics. I’m asking someone else’s opinion of the argument at the moment. You and your personality disorder can get more attention later. Chill out for a minute.
PairPressure,
What brings you to the thread man? I noticed you have a registration date of 2010 and only a few hundred posts on the entire 2+2 forum. That’s a long time to go without posting!
lol. Life gets in the way. Once they banned online poker I kinda went on with my life.
Now that sports betting and fantasy is legal I came back. Usually I read stuff but rarely comment about poker as I’m not comfortable discussing all this optimal strategy and the math behind it. I could read up on it but I got kids and stuff so not much time to do that.
It’s just I’ve had these LeBron debates with my friends and people at work so I thought I’d chime in….lol.
Yes yes. Like I said, you have made this argument a thousand times now. We get it — you don’t understand math, probability, nor statistics. I’m asking someone else’s opinion of the argument at the moment. You and your personality disorder can get more attention later. Chill out for a minute.
It's public information that none of the 1st options from dynasties or dominant champions were ball-dominators with low-assisted rates and unassisted scoring.
You simply can't handle the reality that the guy you thought was goat has a skillset that can't produce the best basketball, and actually produces the worst chemistry possible and the worst chemistry of any skillset (imposing spot-up roles upon teammates and low-assist teams) - the only skillset that has this affliction is high-scoring primary ball-handlers (ball-dominators).
So again, none of this is opinion or requires understanding of math - it's simply public information that I'm happy to share itt.
Of the two, who do you think is the better overall player? Do you think LeBron James is outside the top 10 greatest players of all time?
Now you’re getting to preference and it’s obvious where I would stand on preference. I’m just saying stats aren’t the end all when it comes to who is the goat etc.
The game has changed so much it’s entirely unfair to compare different eras. Is Le Bron the best of his era? Or more aptly is he the best among his contemporaries? An argument could be made there. Is he the best of all time? That’s debatable. Analytics and metrics don’t tell the whole story. There is something to be said about the eye test - according to my eye test I would rank him outside the top 6/7.
As far as his peers are concerned I’d say Curry did more to change the NBA game than LeBron and Tim Duncan might be the better team player than LeBron.
PairPressure,
What do you think of this argument specifically? That a difference of 0.2 assisted field goals per game single handedly destroys team chemistry? Exact numbers and calculations shown below.
To be precise LeBron’s career assisted fg% is about 38% right now. And he has averaged 9.9 field goals per game throughout his career.
Meaning of those 9.9 field goals per game, an average of 3.7478 are assisted. If LeBron averaged a 40% assisted fg%, he’d average 3.96 assisted field goals per game.
Someone is arguing that if LeBron James averaged 3.96 assisted and 5.94 unassisted field goals per game for his career he would be “highly assisted” like Kobe Bryant and Jayson Tatum, for example. But
I would say LeBron is not a good fit with a ball movement offense where he isn’t a facilitator - like say a Popovich type offense or a Steve Kerr style offense where the facilitator can be any player on the court. Since I have never seen James play in a true motion type offense it’s difficult to say. James controls everything and everyone caters to him on the court.
The closest James would play in a motion type offense is when James was in Cleveland and he had that European coach who wanted to install a Euro offense. James had him fired because it didn’t fit his style. Hope that answers your question.
People forget that Lebron is 20-21 in the Finals excluding 07, 11', and 15', so he has a lottery record on the championship level, regardless of cast.
I would say LeBron is not a good fit with a ball movement offense where he isn’t a facilitator - like say a Popovich type offense or a Steve Kerr style offense where the facilitator can be any player on the court. Since I have never seen James play in a true motion type offense it’s difficult to say. James controls everything and everyone caters to him on the court.
The closest James would play in a motion type offense is when James was in Cleveland and he had that European coach w
Do you think LeBron and Luka are terrible fits together since they both have typically played as ball dominant guards/forwards and the Lakers will fall apart as a result, doing worse than last year? (Missing the play-in)
Or do you think since they are professional basketball players, one or both of them may be able to adjust to different personnel and a different scheme to accommodate them both?
I would say LeBron is not a good fit with a ball movement offense where he isn’t a facilitator - like say a Popovich type offense or a Steve Kerr style offense where the facilitator can be any player on the court. Since I have never seen James play in a true motion type offense it’s difficult to say. James controls everything and everyone caters to him on the court.
The closest James would play in a motion type offense is when James was in Cleveland and he had that European coach w
Ur done Matt.. Have a nice day
I would say LeBron is not a good fit with a ball movement offense where he isn’t a facilitator - like say a Popovich type offense or a Steve Kerr style offense where the facilitator can be any player on the court. Since I have never seen James play in a true motion typey offense it’s difficult to say. James controls everything and everyone caters to him on the court.
The closest James would play in a motion type offense is when James was in Cleveland and he had that European coach
By the way, thank you for agreeing with the key point — we have never seen James play in a true motion type offense. And that you put LeBron just outside 6/7, and not outside the top 10. We’re not too far apart.
What do you think of the argument that a difference of 0.2 assisted field goals per game instantaneously destroys team chemistry, and that a difference of 0.2 assisted field goals per game cannot be due to system or scheme differences? Just curious.
LeBron would be ranked below these guys in no particular order (though Jordan and Kobe are the best IÂ’ve ever seen imo)
Jordan - killer on offense and defense. All around greatness.
Kobe - great offense but not as good defensively as Jordan
Shaq - unstoppable in his prime
Curry - he literally changed the way the modern NBA is played.
Tim Duncan - great all around player. Exceptional team player - his stats donÂ’t tell the whole story.
Bird - ultimate competitor and could do it allÂ….shoot, pass rebound and tough as nailsÂ…and so so clutch.
Magic - first big man to play the point. Would be great at any position on the court. Had style. Fun to watch and maybe the best passer of all time.
My dad would put these guys ahead of James but outside of YouTube I was too young to have seen these guys play in their prime so IÂ’ll give James the benefit of the doubt. But a case could be made that James falls behind these guys as well.
Jabbar
Russell
Chamberlain
Robertson
Dr J
like say a Popovich type offense or a Steve Kerr style offense where the facilitator can be any player on the court.
So Lebron doesn't fit "dynasty" ball, since all the dynasties use the ball movement system that Lebron doesn't fit.
"Dynasty-ball" includes the triangle or triangle-influenced offenses of the 90's Bulls, 00's Lakers, Spurs, and Warriors - Lebron cannot play this style, so every coach he gets is handcuffed and must run "bron-ball' and ball-dominance instead... This weaker brand causes underachievement with favored rosters, such as falling from preseason favorite to underdog or loser for 6 straight years from 11' to 16' (except the Allen miracle), and also 21'.
LeBron would be ranked below these guys in no particular order (though Jordan and Kobe are the best IÂ’ve ever seen imo)
Jordan - killer on offense and defense. All around greatness.
Kobe - great offense but not as good defensively as Jordan
Shaq - unstoppable in his prime
Curry - he literally changed the way the modern NBA is played.
Tim Duncan - great all around player. Exceptional team player - his stats donÂ’t tell the whole story.
Bird - ultimate competitor and could do it allÂ….shoot, pass rebou
Great breakdown.. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure Matt has left us.. He's likely on a ledge somewhere.... ("don't do it Matt!!")
I agree. The modern triangle or motion offense where the player that makes that first or second pass before the actual assist pass (if that makes sense) would not fit LeBron’s game. James doesn’t move well without the ball and holds onto the ball far too long for a triangle motion offense to work. Most of,the time his teammates are waiting at the 3 point line waiting for the kick out pass. Nevermind all those fake fouls they give him on a nightly basis when the shot clock winds down and he forces a shot.
Dont even want to get into his play on defense - hint non existent,
I agree. The modern triangle or motion offense where the player that makes that first or second pass before the actual assist pass (if that makes sense) would not fit LeBron’s game. James doesn’t move well without the ball and holds onto the ball far too long for a triangle motion offense to work. Most of,the time his teammates are waiting at the 3 point line waiting for the kick out pass. Nevermind all those fake fouls they give him on a nightly basis when the shot clock winds do
Ever since he was discovered at 10 years old, the coach put the ball in his hands and he never really evolved out of that skillset.. A couple years of college would've helped but I'm sure the coach would've just allowed him to dominate the ball as well.. It's telling that he fired Blatt for trying to install a Princeton-themed offense... Ultimately, his style uses teammates as bailout options instead of putting the ball in their hands and bailing them out when needed, thus maximizing their production and the team's.
I agree. The modern triangle or motion offense where the player that makes that first or second pass before the actual assist pass (if that makes sense) would not fit LeBron’s game. James doesn’t move well without the ball and holds onto the ball far too long for a triangle motion offense to work. Most of,the time his teammates are waiting at the 3 point line waiting for the kick out pass. Nevermind all those fake fouls they give him on a nightly basis when the shot clock winds do
So just so we are clear — players like Bill Wennington and Will Perdue were able to adjust their game and play in the triangle, but you don’t think LeBron James could adjust his game to play in the triangle?
Do you think LeBron James averaging 3.75 assisted field goals per game for his career, rather than 3.96 assisted field goals per game, destroys team chemistry?
PairPressure,
One other question for you, do you think the coach has any influence on the scheme being run?
Man, that’s pretty wild that you only have a few hundred posts since 2010 when you were first registered. That’s 15 years! Glad you took such a sudden interest in this thread and have found time to reply.
Do you know anyone else posting in this thread? How’d you find out about it, so suddenly? Nice to meet you, previously unknown poster!
Is fallguy still around? Haven’t heard much from him lately. If he ever posted anything new or interesting he may be more noticeable.
Did he ever answer why his top 10 players of all time list shifts so drastically depending on what he is arguing? Like when Bill Russell went from #2 to #13 — sometimes highly assisted volume scoring is all that matters and sometimes it doesn’t matter at all. I wonder if he ever addressed that, or if he scurried away like a little weasel rat.
