LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
For record keeping purposes, Pippen in a down year still finished with an All NBA 3rd team (i.e. Top 15 player).
There's never been a worse argument for a player than the opinion of a few dozen journalism majors.
journalism majors that only see certain players as All-NBA if there's winning spotlight (titles).
From now on, posts that cite media accolade will be ignored.. If you can't cite ACTUAL PERFORMANCE from Pippen that compares to Kyrie, Wade, AD or Luka's playoff heroics, dominance and carry-jobs, then you have nothing...
So you obviously have nothing , since Pippen never achieved dominance or elite stats in any series, and was carried in every series.
Yes, I can understand that. I can then analyses the information and make conclusions based on it.
So, for instance. I can work out being a 5-1 favourite 5 times and winning 2 championships is better than being 2-1 favourite 5 times and winning 3 Championships. Even though you'd say "But the 5-1 team lost 3 times. 3>2".
^^^ you wrote that wrong but it's irrelevant
No one has a more extensive resume of bad losses and choking than Lebron.
You criminally underrate the 2014 Spurs, and 2017/18 Warriors to get those as bad losses. Those teams would all 6-0 the Bulls finals opponents.
Against top teams, Lebron can't carry the star category of scoring, so he needs more star help and hurts a GM's capacity to get defensive help.
Lebron's ball-dominant skillset also imposes spot-up roles upon teammates, so there are no single-digit rookies that grew into meaningful producers on his watch (zero young player development in 22 seasons).
These 2 factors alone put him out of the top 10 all-time, even without considering how the spot-up roles and bad chemistry cannot win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player, and still rarely wins with super-teams, and can never produce the best basketball as 1st option (dynasty or dominant champion).
You criminally underrate the 2014 Spurs, and 2017/18 Warriors to get those as bad losses. Those teams would all 6-0 the Bulls finals opponents.
In 2014, the 37-year old Duncan had all the same age excuses to lose that Lebron had in 2022, so there's no reason to think he would win... The 8-seeded Mavs and fossil Dirk almost beat them in the 1st Round in 7 games, while OKC won a couple games too.
Only the Heat were demolished by record amount despite basically even odds entering the series.. They also had preseason favorite status for the 4th straight year by being the only team in the NBA with multiple franchise players (super-team) compared to normal rosters of 1 franchise player for every other team.
Those Spurs had a normal roster of 1 franchise player that wasn't better than any of the Bulls' Finals opponents... Meanwhile, the 17' Cavs had a sidekick that already destroyed Curry, while Love and Klay cancel out, so there wasn't a big talent gap that plenty of teams overcome all the time.. Jordan's Bulls had talent deficits in every Finals except 97' and 98', where they faced a Jazz team that swept Duncan/Popovich and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers to make the 98' Finals.. So you're just making excuses.
You criminally underrate the 2014 Spurs, and 2017/18 Warriors to get those as bad losses. Those teams would all 6-0 the Bulls finals opponents.
If Jordan lost a 7-game series while averaging 26.7 on 35% with 5.3 turnovers, it would be considered an epic choke, so the 2008 2nd Round is a black mark for Lebron, while 22 on 35% with 6 TO's is also a black mark in 2007... Or the 21 on 34% meltdown for the last 3 games to lose a 2-1 lead in 2010 2nd Round - this caused the "decision" to start deck-stacking... Then the 2011 Finals, or losing a 2-1 lead to Booker in 21', or being lottery in his prime in 2019... Or getting ragdolled repeatedly by Jokic's inferior roster...
Again, no one has a longer resume of losing and choking than Lebron.. He's only 37% on game-winners in the playoffs and 0% in the Finals (0-7) - he's never scored on the last possession of a 1-possession Finals game!!.. Btw , Lebron had 7 turnovers in the 4th and OT of Game 4 of the 09' ECF and he became a 12 turnover per game player in cluch-time for the series - he also had the horrible defensive blunder by guarding Courtney Lee instead of his position (Hedo).. So Lebron had upset losses or personal bed-wettings/chokes for every year between 2007-2011.. Then he lost with 2 all-star teammates in 14' and 17' by record amount each time... Then lottery in 2019 and ragdolled by Jokic thereafter.
There's never been a worse argument for a player than the opinion of a few dozen journalism majors.
journalism majors that only see certain players as All-NBA if there's winning spotlight (titles).
From now on, posts that cite media accolade will be ignored.. If you can't cite ACTUAL PERFORMANCE from Pippen that compares to Kyrie, Wade, AD or Luka's playoff heroics, dominance and carry-jobs, then you have nothing...
So you obviously have nothing , since Pippen never achieved dominance or elite sta
A few dozen = 98?
You raise a great point about All-NBA being pushed towards winning teams. Let's check the other players in the 3rd team that year
Franchise Player Tim Hardaway 34 wins
Petrović 43 wins
Coleman 43 wins
D Rob 49 wins
Pippen 57 wins
Well, maybe not.
Fun fact. Pippen had the most votes in the third team, just missing out on the 2nd team.
It's okay. 98 people don't agree with you from that year. But you're obviously right.
By the way, here's the All Defensive Team from that year.
I always enjoy the bit about how terrible the Mavs were in 2011 and FG always forget to mention that they swept Kobe's Lakers.
You remember the series Kobe only averaged 23/3/2 and got outplayed by Jason Terry.
