LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Kareem produced a dynasty (3 in 5) and great chemistry (many assisted buckets as 1st option and therefore high assist teams), so he's 2 for 4 in my top 10 criteria, while Lebron is 0 for 4 in meeting any of my criteria (never produced a great chemistry or great team, aka dynasty or dominant champion, and never won with normal rosters or carried scoring load).

you literally fell for all the Klutch narratives and propaganda and have been spouting it throughout the thread

Lebron got credit for beating baby Tatum without Kyrie, so you just confirmed that Lebron is weaker than Curry - by your own logic bolded above!!

You're constantly saying "everyone knows." You know what everyone knows? Pippen was great and LBJ is, at worst, a top 3 OAT GOAT who accomplished a ton of winning.

You can't keep citing prevailing opinion when you try to run counter to it with basically all of your takes (well, not without looking and sounding really contradictory/dumb).

Show me a promo for a game in the 90's where it's like "Big forward matchup - Pippen vs Barkley", or any forward you want... Not even Glen Rice.... Pippen simply wasn't viewed as a scorer and everyone knew he was a system player.. He was never expected to battle the best players in the league like AD dominating Jokic in the 2020 WCF, or Kyrie dominating young MJ to make the Finals without Lebron in 2024, or dominating MVP Curry to win the 16' Finals.

Ultimately, Pippen cratered a 3-peat dynasty to barely .500 and was dominated by Ewing along the way, while AD lifted a lottery team to champion in 1 season, while dominating Jokic along the way... Furthermore, if AD averaged 19 o 42% in a single Finals, he would get demoted historically and trashed by the media regardless of how good his defense was, yet Pippen averaged that trash for his Finals career - Jordan won 6 chips with Pandemic P.

Pippen is primarily a defensive player with some adequate offensive skills.

I think he's got more in him to be an offensive fulcrum than a Shawn Marion or Iggy but those are prbly his closest comps. Maybe a lesser Grant Hill on the offensive side while definitively better defensively.

I'd say 90-95% of peak Grant Hill is prbly the best I got as a value assessment (being that offense is indeed superior to defense). Fringe top 5ish guy ITL and the top two-way wing as a definite top 10-12 guy.

We saw how Kawhi and Paul George were able to grow out of a similar role so no one really can be sure how it would've gone without MJ dominating the shot distribution.

Winning does indeed elevate players but that includes MJ, he's not the GOAT if he's stuck with mediocre teammates and coaching. There's almost no one that would've been a better sidekick to MJ and his skillset.

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Players speaking candidly about Pippen:

BILL LAIMBEER:

"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordanaires. And you can't win championships like that, with only one player."."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsspor...

SHAQ TALKING ABOUT PIPPEN:

"I don't let bums disrespect me..."

"Don't make me pull up the scouting report. You wasn't even a factor on the scouting report. It was all about Mike[/b][/I]."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication...

"You did okay, but MJ did most of the work"

"yes THE GREAT MICHAEL JORDAN GOT YOU SIX RINGS , but you will always be remembered as MR 2nd FIDDLE."

"See what happens when Michael Jordan ain't protecting you, you lose a 17 pt lead in the fourth quarter." (referring to 2000 WCF Game 7) [/I]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thewrap...[/INDENT]



JERRY KRAUSE, BULLS GM:

“Would Pippen have been great someplace else?

Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him... No, Michael made him a man.

Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And he - Collins - had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death."

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/ne...

CHUCK DALY:

"It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily... it's our 5.... playing... you."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCd...

CHUCK DALY:

"We knew how dangerous he was and we knew going into the playoffs that we had to do something special.. So we most definitely devised what we called "the Jordan Rules""

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIx...

BILL LAIMBEER:

"The Jordan Rules were to just stop him, because no one else could beat you on that ballclub"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhj...

PHIL JACKSON:

"Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not time YET."

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_N...

This was Phil Jackson during a huddle in the 1991 NBA Finals, showing how the everyday game plan was to leave Michael alone and let him do everything down the stretch of games.

DUMARS AND ISIAH:

"Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)".

"Dumars and i were on the phone for hours, talking about 23 in red."

"Isiah called me at 3 in the morning and said 'I think i finally figured out a way to stop MJ"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv4...

This was Dumars' and Isiah's reaction to the Bulls taking 2-1 series lead in 1989 ECF after MJ hit GW over Rodman.. The last quote is from assistant coach Brendan Malone, who said that Isiah called at 3 am to talk about stopping MJ.

HORACE GRANT:

"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I mean, would've had a decent career, but for a leader like that to lead you to 3 championships..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVW... [/INDENT]


SCOTTIE PIPPEN:

"It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv4...

This was Pippen in the Bad Boys documentary ADMITTING he the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7 - this cost the Bulls a trip to the Finals and the ring - (Bulls would've beaten Blazers - Blazers lost in 5 easy games to Pistons, while Bulls took then 7.

REGGIE MILLER:

"Bulls are nothing without MJ" - 1991

https://www.nba.com/bulls/news/top-20-mo...[/INDENT]

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Bullsh*t.

You're the one ignoring many peers like Shaq, Dominique, Isiah, Barkley, or Miller calling him a role player, or "not on the scouting report", or a "bus rider", or 1-man team, or Laimbeer saying "we didn't even think about Pippen"...... Or his lack of dominating performances, statistically-carried in every series, zero big shots, and no accolades without the winning spotlight of titles... All of this evidence and documentation has been provided itt for anyone that wasn't there to witness Pippen's system play in person.

So cut the crap

I think fg is more right than wrong on almost all his takes but his hyperbolic negativity overwhelms his kernels of truth.

eta: Who cares wtf Laimbeer has to say? Players are not great analysts, why don't you start quoting Perk while you're at it?

You want me to quote what players in the 40s and 50s would've said about black players? Would that carry any weight?

JFC, you're insufferable.

omg omg omg look at what both Rodman AND Isiah had to say about Larry Bird

Looks like he's JAG. Case closed.

Definitely rivals are the arbiters of truth. Whatever Shaq said about Dwight Howard must be true too.

Embiid and Perk said Jokic was overrated? Well there ya go, let's give the MVP to those that best manipulate the narratives.

[QUOTE=Isiah Thomas]“Michael Jordan was a great player, but he wasn’t the greatest player of all time. He got a lot of help, especially from the referees. I’m not saying he didn’t have a lot of talent, but if you look at the way the game was officiated, it was more in his favor.”[/QUOTE]

So there ya go, not the GOAT.

[QUOTE=Jerry West]"He’s a great player, but sometimes he’s more of a show-off than an actual basketball player. I’m not sure if I would want to be remembered just for being a great showman.”[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Kareem Abdul-Jabbar]“Michael was the one who changed the game. But at the same time, his style of play started to make the game a little more individualistic, where players were less inclined to play within a team structure and more inclined to be ‘the star.’”[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Reggie Miller]"Michael Jordan is a great player, but he's also very competitive to the point where he's not a great teammate"[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Patrick Ewing]"Michael Jordan is a great player, but he's also very arrogant... He thinks he's above the game."[/QUOTE]

And boy, he sure sounds like a cancer. Look at all those Hall of Fame players putting their name on it, not Bill Laimbeer and some coaches.

Meanwhile, that LeBron sure is a nice guy and great teammate. I could pull up the quotes but everyone knows it's true.

Wait,

What the **** is this quote?

The quote is saying the Bulls couldn't win with it just being Jordan.

This runs totally counter to all your posts. That had to be before they started winning them? It doesn't even make sense otherwise.

This isn't speaking candidly about Pippen. It's not about Pippen at all.

Ok, and?

Again, nothing about Pippen.

I see Dennis Rodman on that top 75 team also.

Everyone I posted that was critical of MJ is on that team.

It's no Bill Laimbeer saying they weren't worried about second year Pippen and that the Bulls would never win titles tho.

Indeed. And I didn't even try!

I tried to toss him a bone but he gets all up in his feelings over any perceived (indirect) slight to Air Precious.

So yeah he gets to 25 per -- I mean exactly 25 -- then goes down. When he comes back with limited minutes for a game or two and not many games left he'll have to make a special effort not to dip a bit. But he'll make it.

But for the Covid season in which I stumbled upon the world's greatest sports prognostication, James has 21 straight 1500 point seasons (needs a few more this year). As it is he has 22 straight 1000 point seasons. That Covid season he was 1 point total over 25 per game, and this year he is dead on the money.

- Quote me …..

- I have no idea what you mean but it’s ok.
Half the thing you are saying are demonstrably false by stats .

Kareem couldn’t never win a title without the « arguably » best 2 goat point guard ever ….
Who LeBron has as a second option for a goat in team position ?
And Kareem only 2 mvp final lol while LeBron got 4 -> just double …
So Kareem never had the carrying load and never lead 1 man normal team to a championship .

Now your 4 arguments do not apply to a $h!t load of your top 10 …..
And Russel got 0 but it’s fine ?
lol

And btw your 4 « criteria » are so cherry picking it’s not even funny .
I mean LeBron carry the load clearly during the 2013 playoffs (10pts+) but in the final dwade played a little better and because of this , not in top 10 ? lol…
Yeah 6-7 wasn’t god enough , needs precisely 10 just in the final .

To believe because a guy didn’t reach the magic number 10 pts per game in a specifically 7 games series , but being the best player in that series 4 times worth less then guys having reach once that 10 pts benchmark but only happens to be the mvp of that series is worth more ?
Nonsense at all , specially when a guy like Russel never could but hey , number 2 ever lol ….

Even wilt never lead a championship team by himself or had the scoring load ….
5th in scoring load in 1965 -> did he get carry lol ? And 3rd in 1972 -> but hey it’s ok for him ?

FG u make nonsense ….
Ps: Lebron won 3 ring in 5 years and was the best player !
How many player did that beside mj and shaq ?

Pps: Kareem didn’t produce a dynasty -> magic did .
3 final mvp while Kareem had 1 when they played together buddy .
Sounds to me Kareem got carried most of his wins by magic ….
Another fail by you ….